Red Dot on a handgun .. any regrets?

[Boriqua]

So last week I tried a few rounds through a bullpup with a dot and it was amazing.

Today I got to try a handgun. A little different since you can't count on shouldering but after a minute of just acquiring the sight after the draw and changing my sight pic some the dot just pops right on target.

Let off about 8,10 rounds from a glock 19 and it was wild. Its like freagin cheating.

Switching between targets is where it really shined for me. Guessing I had one about 8 yds directly in front, one about 25 yds to the left and one about 30 to the right. Moving from target to target was effortless. Damnit... I liked it.

Cha ching!

 

[needsmostuff]

Something to try if you have to take a while to find the dot.
Initially I tend to present pointing high and have found a system for me .
Point , look thru the red dot , squeeze on the bottom of the grip and the red dot comes down from out of view.
Faster for me , maybe you. As you shoot it becomes easier to acquire the sight.

 

[freefly]

As you shoot it becomes easier to acquire the sight.

Yep, red dots are faster/easier, especially for those with "ageing" eyes.
And yep, there is a learning/training curve.

A couple other things to add:

Within reason, a larger dot is generally better for most (pistol) applications, IMO. They are easier/faster to acquire, with less pronounced/perceived "wobble" than smaller dots. Larger dots also require less intensity (brightness) to pick up vs. smaller dots.

If you are in the "smaller dots are fine because you can just turn up the brightness" camp, you are doing it wrong, IMO. It will work, but not as intended. Any excess "bloom" will occlude the target anyway, and sometimes much more than if you were to simply go up in dot size with no blooming.

Obviously if you are shooting bullseye / long range, or any other application with a heavy preference for accuracy (vs. speed), then a smaller dot will be a better choice.

Also, it can be a bit hard to "unlearn" the one-eyed squint shooting, if that's what you are used to. The thing with red dots is that they more easily facilitate the ability to shoot both-eyes-open, with no parallax and no need for multi-plane sight alignment. You basically focus on your target (not the dot), and simply superimpose the dot on where you want the round to hit. It's a single focal-plane system, as opposed to the three focal-planes of traditional irons (rear sight / front sight / target).

YMMV...

 

[magaskins]

I put a swampfox kingslayer on a g19, best thing I ever did. Cannot miss....

 

[knockonit]

I put a swampfox kingslayer on a g19, best thing I ever did. Cannot miss....

what he meant to say his friends who shoot his gat'' cannot miss'' :lol:

 

[TJMX397]

As you shoot it becomes easier to acquire the sight.

Yep, red dots are faster/easier, especially for those with "ageing" eyes.
And yep, there is a learning/training curve.

A couple other things to add:

Within reason, a larger dot is generally better for most (pistol) applications, IMO. They are easier/faster to acquire, with less pronounced/perceived "wobble" than smaller dots. Larger dots also require less intensity (brightness) to pick up vs. smaller dots.

If you are in the "smaller dots are fine because you can just turn up the brightness" camp, you are doing it wrong, IMO. It will work, but not as intended. Any excess "bloom" will occlude the target anyway, and sometimes much more than if you were to simply go up in dot size with no blooming.

Obviously if you are shooting bullseye / long range, or any other application with a heavy preference for accuracy (vs. speed), then a smaller dot will be a better choice.

Also, it can be a bit hard to "unlearn" the one-eyed squint shooting, if that's what you are used to. The thing with red dots is that they more easily facilitate the ability to shoot both-eyes-open, with no parallax and no need for multi-plane sight alignment. You basically focus on your target (not the dot), and simply superimpose the dot on where you want the round to hit. It's a single focal-plane system, as opposed to the three focal-planes of traditional irons (rear sight / front sight / target).

YMMV...

Good stuff & spot on. It's a game changer for me, who like others, is getting older & my eyes aren't what they used to be. I have a Romeo1 Pro on my M18 & it's unbelievable how quickly I got comfortable, especially being a two-eye shooter. No regrets, other than cost .

 

[schiffer99]

I have been fighting going to the red dot on the handgun... but I have to admit, its superior to iron sights. The biggest problem with the red dot--as I imagine it was with red dots on rifles--is stubborness.

I had shot many USPSA matches with irons, done classes with irons, and shot 1000's of rounds with irons. First match i shot with a red dot, I sucked. Couldn't find the dot, felt slower, and figured the battery would die at any minute. Second match, i sucked a little less. Than during the third match I kind of noticed how much easier distance shots were with the dot. I was able to start changing stage plans and having to move less as I could take longer distance shots on targets like steel poppers. I also started to force myself to target focus and superimpose the dot as opposed to trying to focus on the front sight. I still have A LOT of frustrations compared to irons, but when I can get the dot working for me, its works far better than irons ever could. Also, with high enough irons you can still use them for the super close target and snap shots. (i.e. kind of point shoot using the front sight.)

What really convinced me is when I took some friends and family out shooting for the first time. None had experience with shooting irons or red dots. Every one of them from teenagers to adults shot the red dot far better and made comments along the lines of "why doesn't every handgun have this?"

 

[coupeman]

I've been on the fence about putting on a 19x, I gotta stay away from this thread! hahah

 

[Yellowcarbon]

Check out the ACSS reticle from Primary Arms on the Holosun 507C. It's a PA exclusive and has a large ring that sits outside the window of the sigh when properly aligned. The circle is to help you correct the reticle if it is 'lost' and helps you see how to correctly bring the chevron back into the window. When you square up, dots aren't difficult to find with minimal practice. But when shooting from awkward positions, the ACSS reticle shines. I also love the chevron aiming point as it is fast while still allowing you to use the tip for precision shooting. I think it is a well thought out reticle and is my current favorite.

I also have the circle dot reticle on another 507C, which might get put on a shotgun. I thought I would like the circle dot more than I do, but I do need to shoot a little more to see which one I like. I bought the circle dot and within a week, got the ACSS reticle as it was an open box item from PA for $90 off. I only have 1 milled slide and am trying to decide if I want another milled slide or to put it on a shotgun.

I get the criticism of the Holosun optics being from China. But they have out capitalist the capitalist and up the bar. Its durable, has selectible reticles (dot only/circle dot), is inexpensive, shake awake, etc. They have innovated and polished up the concept, so now the other guys need to catch up. I would gladly pay more for a Trijicon RMR with these features, but they don't offer it. But when I can pay half for more features, it's hard to reward the US manufacturers. And believe me, I have done my part buying US made guns & optics. Over the years, I have owned a dozen ACOGs and Accupoints from Trijicon. But they don't have what I wand on the mini red dot market. Hell, I even tried a Trijicon Tripower which wasn't a very good optics, although the concept was excellent.

 

[xerts1191]

https://youtu.be/jjlL0hYgdag

 

[BigNate]

I have exactly one handgun with a RDS. I'll have more in the future. Regrets? No. Cautions? Yes. Some food for thought below...

Practice
In my opinion, the RDS sight amplifies the need to practice to unconscious competence - especially for the experienced shooter. Don't think that your decades of shooting through iron sights takes the place of lots of practice through the RDS. This is not like moving from black iron sights to luminescent iron sights. Finding your target is NOT the same as with iron sights and until you really build muscle memory it can take a couple of attempts to find the dot. It's also not the same as an RDS on a rifle or carbine. I found that much easier to adapt to - it was just like looking through a scope. RDS on a handgun - not so much. If you go into it thinking "piece of cake - I'm a good shooter - I'll just screw one on to the gun and throw it in the truck" - you are making a mistake. I'm about 1000 rounds into shooting the RDS handgun and it has not yet made it to "willing to bet my life on it" status. Close? Yep. But not there yet. Until I can draw straight to the dot on the target "every time - including the first time out of the holster on that range trip" I won't bet my life on it. The first draw to sight picture of the day is still inconsistent, and until that changes I'll not be carrying one for defense.

Cowitness Sites
I shot a friend's RDS equipped handgun that had suppressor height iron sights on it and I really didn't like it. I bought cowitness height sights so that if the battery is dead I still have sights. Candidly - I don't even see them unless I look for them. If you want to cowitness through the RDS - I'd start with something that just barely enters the sight - don't get suppressor height sights - you don't want to clutter your picture. Additionally - take the time to practice finding the irons through a "dead" (turned off) RDS. If shooting with a friend ask them to turn off the RDS at some point in the day so that when you draw to the target it is not on (and you don't expect it) - see how long it takes you to find the irons...

Batteries on a Gun
As to the comment(s) about not trusting your life to something with a battery. I get the sentiment - but in my opinion it's a risk/reward question. As my eyes age, I have a harder time getting good focus on the front sight post. I looked to an RDS as a possible solution and found that it really does improve my shooting. At the end of the day getting rounds on target fast is the most critical thing and as I've practiced with it I absolutely shoot tighter groups and get the first round through paper faster than with irons. So it makes me a better shooter - now - is the risk of having it fail "worse" than the gains I get by using it... If I can reduce that risk it gets easy to say that it is not. So, I've made a habit of checking the RDS function at home before going to the range. Once I start carrying the RDS equipped gun that will be part of the daily status check for the gun. I chose the Holosun 507c X2 which has the secondary solar charged power source and claims a 50,000 hour battery life (equates to about 5 1/2 years). I've put a note on the calendar to proactively change the battery once a year. Between the proactive battery changes, the solar backup, and the cowitness iron sights - my mental math says that the risk of having a dead battery / device is nicely outweighed by the substantially improved target acquisition and bullet placement that I see when shooting the gun.

Just my 2 cents...

 

[Boriqua]

I have exactly one handgun with a RDS. I'll have more in the future. Regrets? No. Cautions? Yes.

In my opinion, the RDS sight amplifies the need to practice to unconscious competence. Until you REALLY build muscle memory it can take a couple of attempts to find the dot - and as someone who has shot iron sight handguns for decades I can tell you that it is absolutely "different." I'm about 1000 rounds into shooting the RDS handgun and it has not yet made it to EDC status. Close? Yep. But not there yet. Until I can draw straight to the dot on the target "every time including the first time of that range trip" I won't bet my life on it.

I shot a friend's RDS equipped handgun that had suppressor height iron sights on it and I really didn't like it. I bought cowitness height sights so that if the battery is dead I still have sights. Candidly - I don't even see them unless I look for them. If you want to cowitness through the RDS - I'd start with something that just barely enters the sight - don't get suppressor height sights - you don't want to clutter your picture.

As to the comment(s) about not trusting your life to something with a battery. I get the sentiment - but in my opinion, particularly as my eyes age, and I have a harder time getting good focus on the front sight post, the RDS really, really does improve my shooting - and at the end of the day getting rounds on target is the most critical thing. I've made a habit of checking the RDS function at home before going to the range and once I start carrying the RDS gun that will be part of the daily routine. I chose the Holosun 507c X2 which has the secondary solar charged power source and claims a 50,000 hour battery life (equates to about 5 1/2 years). I've put a note on the calendar to proactively change the battery once a year. Between the proactive battery changes, the solar backup, and the cowitness iron sights - my mental math says that the risk of having a dead battery / device is nicely outweighed by the substantially improved target acquisition and bullet placement that I see when shooting the gun.

Just my 2 cents...

Great post .. May I ask, at what distances are you practicing at? I too have lost my eagle like vision to age but I can hit reliably out to 7 yds with point shooting especially if I am doing it as part of a draw stroke. I still recognize the front sight but its almost incidental.Just wondering at what distance do you really start to feel its improving your shooting.

 

[BigNate]

Great post .. May I ask, at what distances are you practicing at? I too have lost my eagle like vision to age but I can hit reliably out to 7 yds with point shooting especially if I am doing it as part of a draw stroke. I still recognize the front sight but its almost incidental.Just wondering at what distance do you really start to feel its improving your shooting.

Regular practice drills at 5, 7, 10, 15 yard. Once I'm "in the groove" and finding the dot immediately I'm better at all ranges with it. Every once in a while for giggles I'll shoot at something at 50+ yards and yes - it helps there too.

 

[xerts1191]

https://youtu.be/KFN-bVev9gw

ANOTHER DOT

 

[smithers599]

Just for your info:
Last Wednesday had a practice session at Ben Avery with a couple of friends. If you recall, it rained last Wednesday, but we don't let that keep us from practicing. We were slower than usual (drawing from IWB holsters concealed under raincoats), but that's just the way it is. We can't guarantee nice weather when and if the time comes that we need to use our guns for self defense.
The one guy who was using a red dot said "Hey, look at this!" The screen of his RDS was covered with raindrops. It was like looking through the windshield of your car without the windshield wipers turned on. The red dot was there, but the target was pretty badly obscured.
Just an observation that most people don't think about. RDSs (and scopes) are hard to use in the rain.

 

[Suck My Glock]

Just for your info:
Last Wednesday had a practice session at Ben Avery with a couple of friends. If you recall, it rained last Wednesday, but we don't let that keep us from practicing. We were slower than usual (drawing from IWB holsters concealed under raincoats), but that's just the way it is. We can't guarantee nice weather when and if the time comes that we need to use our guns for self defense.
The one guy who was using a red dot said "Hey, look at this!" The screen of his RDS was covered with raindrops. It was like looking through the windshield of your car without the windshield wipers turned on. The red dot was there, but the target was pretty badly obscured.
Just an observation that most people don't think about. RDSs (and scopes) are hard to use in the rain.

Or a marine environment. We don't think about that much here in the desert. But if you are on a boat or near a lake or river,...no telling if/when you might take an unexpected dip. What if you're in Florida and dive for cover in a roadside canal?

Yep,...reason #212 why I'll never switch from irons.

 

[smithers599]

https://youtu.be/jjlL0hYgdag

Lots of food for thought there.
An item he does not discuss is adjusting the brightness/intensity. At one of our recent monthly shoots, the RO said "Shooter ready," and the shooter said "Hold on, I need to adjust the brightness." Say what? In a gunfight, you don't get to do that. When your gunfight comes, will it be daytime or nighttime? Sunny or cloudy? Inside or outside?

 

[delta6]

Just for your info:
Last Wednesday had a practice session at Ben Avery with a couple of friends. If you recall, it rained last Wednesday, but we don't let that keep us from practicing. We were slower than usual (drawing from IWB holsters concealed under raincoats), but that's just the way it is. We can't guarantee nice weather when and if the time comes that we need to use our guns for self defense.
The one guy who was using a red dot said "Hey, look at this!" The screen of his RDS was covered with raindrops. It was like looking through the windshield of your car without the windshield wipers turned on. The red dot was there, but the target was pretty badly obscured.
Just an observation that most people don't think about. RDSs (and scopes) are hard to use in the rain.

Or a marine environment. We don't think about that much here in the desert. But if you are on a boat or near a lake or river,...no telling if/when you might take an unexpected dip. What if you're in Florida and dive for cover in a roadside canal?

Yep,...reason #212 why I'll never switch from irons.

Red dot will function fine "occluded" :hand: ...prefectly fine... :dance:

 

[Harley66]

Finally put a Trijacon on my Glock 23, love it

 

[smithers599]

Just for your info:
Last Wednesday had a practice session at Ben Avery with a couple of friends. If you recall, it rained last Wednesday, but we don't let that keep us from practicing. We were slower than usual (drawing from IWB holsters concealed under raincoats), but that's just the way it is. We can't guarantee nice weather when and if the time comes that we need to use our guns for self defense.
The one guy who was using a red dot said "Hey, look at this!" The screen of his RDS was covered with raindrops. It was like looking through the windshield of your car without the windshield wipers turned on. The red dot was there, but the target was pretty badly obscured.
Just an observation that most people don't think about. RDSs (and scopes) are hard to use in the rain.

Or a marine environment. We don't think about that much here in the desert. But if you are on a boat or near a lake or river,...no telling if/when you might take an unexpected dip. What if you're in Florida and dive for cover in a roadside canal?

Yep,...reason #212 why I'll never switch from irons.

Red dot will function fine "occluded" :hand: ...prefectly fine... :dance:

The red dot was there, but the target was pretty badly obscured.