Liberty Safe finks out on customers with the feds

[Tenring]

Is there any reason the safe can only recognize ONE access code? Can it be programmed to respond to the either the manufacturer's master code OR the user's code? I wonder . . . . . . . .

Has two codes, the users and the master pre-set (back door code)

I am not worried about LE, I am worried about the data that Liberal Safe has and is it secure, also will it be secure when they go bankrupt. Name/type size of safe/location/combo ........... :naughty:

 

[paulgt2164]

I have no ill will toward Liberty...NEARLY EVERY safe company does this...Liberty just happened to get exposed for doing it. They shouldn't need a subpoena, because they shouldn't retain that info.

This. I would bet nearlyevery safe manufacturer would have done the same exact thing Liberty did, they just were the first to get "exposed" doing it. I bet Liberty's competition will start singing the "we wouldnt do that, we don't do that" PR now - even though they totally would have. Dance around with the silly memes, boycott, and be "shocked and outraged" all you want - but lets be real.

The reaction to this is hilarious, cause I bet all these people dumping their liberties (or saying they are going to) will buy another companies safe - that would do the same thing. The best we can hope for is maybe this will change some internal policies at Liberty (and other manufacturers) to make this harder to do. But, in the grand scheme of things - if "they" want in your safe - they will get in your safe.

Really? This is all bullshit! Liberty f*** rolled over, and everyone is ok with this s***? Just like common sense gun laws, and red flag laws?

No, we aren't ok with it - we just realize that it wouldn't have been any different with any other manufacturer and hope it is the wake up call for the industry.

I hate Apple due to their left-wing views, but they never caved in regarding civil rights, and I applaud them for that!

You are kidding right? Apple has caved many, many times for "civil" rights. In fact their most recent attempt was only thwarted by immense backlash (When they were going to roll out a feature that auto-scans your photos and would report any that could be child porn.) Apple has even been so "cavalier" with user data - they provided a bunch to hackers masquerading as LE (a couple years ago...) Apple only went "hard nose" on not turning over data when they got called out on it about ten years ago. In 2013 they reported they honored LE requests for customer data "between 0 and 1000" times out of a total of 2000-3000 requests. If you think they still aren't handing off data to LE - you live in a fantasy world. Even when/if they refuse - the government will get it anyways. For example - you think it was coincidence that just before the pistol brace ruling SB tactical was "hacked" and customer records were compromised? Obviously a couple agencies didn't want to deal with getting told "no" to legal requests and just hit the easy button.

What happened to integrity? Gone like a chicks virginity on Prom night?

It isn't hard to see why Liberty chose to do it (regardless of right or wrong...) Look at the options :

1. Cave, give out the universal/customer access code and be done with the situation. Avoid any further legal hang ups, skip the further involvement with courts, judges, and law enforcement and whatever other government agencies related to the Jan 6th B.S. Risk making a small percentage of the customer base / non-customer base angry, which will make videos and memes and scream boycott, then forget about it in a week.

or

2. Say "go pound sand" and then be involved in the legal matters of who knows how many government agencies, lawyers, and courts all demanding this information via any means necessary. Be added to the "not cooperative list" for these agencies - ensure further issues or scrutiny. Since it is Jan 6th related you know they are going to be extra rabid.

While I don't agree with option 1 - I see why they did it.

The fact is Liberty f*** up, and should have made the feds work for their agenda, and they didn't. Just because "all" safe manufacturers supposedly retain original combinations, codes, doesn't mean they'd cave.

I would be willing to bet at least 90% would have caved. Lets be real, 90% of people / companies talk a big game till the agents at the door are knocking. The old adage of "everyone has a plan till they are punched in the face." What is more scary to a companies legal department? A week or two of bad press, or a bunch of government agencies on a witch hunt for a "insurrection?"

I just got off the phone with American Security, and guess what? My information was purged from their system before I contacted them.

Of course they said that, in light of the Liberty Safe hoopla. The real judge of them would be if they said that before this happened. Like I said in my previous post - All Liberty's competition will be saying how they wouldn't have - yet I bet they totally would have.

Give an inch, and they'll take a mile! Ridiculous!

No one is disagreeing that this was a sh*tty move on Liberty's part. What is hilarious is people are surprised this happened and can't wrap their head around the "why."

 

[QuietM4]

No one is disagreeing that this was a sh*tty move on Liberty's part. What is hilarious is people are surprised this happened and can't wrap their head around the "why."

I find it funny that as soon as some random company gets some heat for doing something that every safe company does, will do, and has done for years...everyone gets out their "Jump To Conclusions" mat and freaks out. It's just a bunch of old men yelling at clouds.

I'd happily purchase any Liberty safe...as I'm sure there is about to be a lot of used safes available for sale....or at least everyone will say they will sell their Liberty safe, but as soon as it comes to actually selling it and paying for a new one, they magically forget about it.

The truly crazy thing is AR15.com. Page after page of posts about how evil Liberty Safe is...boycott this, boycott that...yada yada. Meanwhile, the front page has an ad for VaultPro...who has a form on their website that allows customers to request the safe combo. And, I would bet that at some point in history Vault Pro has supplied LEO with safe combos.

 

[aroyobob]

Gotta laugh at all the hoopla over this. As if the only thing keeping the Feds out is the pass code.

https://youtu.be/p_WCg0KEiyI?si=fQ_ZApt2lBlItIJV

 

[QuietM4]

Gotta laugh at all the hoopla over this. As if the only thing keeping the Feds out is the pass code.

https://youtu.be/p_WCg0KEiyI?si=fQ_ZApt2lBlItIJV

This was my initial thought. Locks only stop honest people...and they only temporarily slow down dishonest people.

Did the subject of the warrant not know his property was being searched? If he did know...don't be an asshole and just open the safe. Refusing to open it is an exercise in futility. Best case scenario, your have a safe that can be reused. Worst case scenario, they cut open the safe and render it useless in the future.

Did the FBI contact Liberty prior the the search warrant being executed (having prior knowledge of the safes existence and the serial number), or did they execute the warrant, discover the brand and SN of the safe, which instigated contacting Liberty for the combo? The FBI employs (or contracts with) people who can easily open safes...especially a simple gun safe.

But, typical of most people, everyone gets out their "Jump To Conclusion" mat and starts yelling at clouds with little to no background info or full understanding of the actual situation.

I'd happily purchase a used Liberty gun safe.

 

[Tenring]

But, typical of most people, everyone gets out their "Jump To Conclusion" mat and starts yelling at clouds with little to no background info or full understanding of the actual situation.

I'd happily purchase a used Liberty gun safe.

You mean like post #33 right?

 

[Joe_Blacke]

You guys know that Liberty acknowledged that they were wrong. You can now remove any info they have for you, which prevents them from complying with a LE request. They also will require a direct subpoena/warrant by a court ordering them to surrender any info should you continue to have them store your data.

https://twitter.com/libertysafeinc/status/1699606598669459680?ref_src=twsrc%5Egoogle%7Ctwcamp%5Eserp%7Ctwgr%5Etweet


The usual procedure used to be LE had a locksmith come onsite and break into the safe if the owner wouldn’t give up the combo. Lots of drilled/pryed open safes that way which basically destroyed them.

 

[Tenring]

Yes .... post #37

 

[smithers599]

Monomoy Capital Partners, which purchased Liberty Safe in 2021, has contributed more almost half a million dollars to prominent Democrats such as Senators Raphael Warnock (D-GA), John Fetterman (D-PA), and Mark Kelly (D-AZ).

All of the donations made by the company total over $400,000 to the party that seeks to limit firearms.

Liberty Safe is the gun safe company that cooperated with the FBI and recently turned over a private, secure passcode used by a January 6 protestor to agents who later raided his home.

In addition, the company’s current CEO, Justin Hillenbrand, personally donated $4,600 to Former President Barack Obama’s campaign.

 

[aroyobob]

Gotta laugh at all the hoopla over this. As if the only thing keeping the Feds out is the pass code.

This was my initial thought. Locks only stop honest people...and they only temporarily slow down dishonest people.

Did the subject of the warrant not know his property was being searched? If he did know...don't be an a**hole and just open the safe. Refusing to open it is an exercise in futility. Best case scenario, your have a safe that can be reused. Worst case scenario, they cut open the safe and render it useless in the future.
....

I have a very similar thought / question about this - safes and search warrants.

In one of the Youtube lawyer videos about how to react if LE show up with a search warrant the Youtube lawyer he made the statement that you shouldn't obstruct the search in any way but you also should not give any form (verbal, written, by actions, etc.,) consent to the search. The lawyer may have said something like, say, "I do not consent to this search" and then stand aside." Search warrants describe specific locations and if you assist them or give consent for them to search other locations whatever they find is admissible.

I posted a question below the video about gun safes. If the warrant includes the safe or the safe is in a location listed on the warrant: "the office" or "the garage" or whatever, am I providing consent if I open the safe for them to avoid having them cut or drill the safe open? Or is it better for me to sacrifice the safe and let them open it without any action on my part that could be twisted later as me providing consent. The Youtube lawyer never answered so I still have this question about helping LE open a safe.

My current thought is to STFU, say nothing and do nothing to either hinder or aid the search and wait for my lawyer to show up. If they destroy the place that's still better than giving them any leverage they can use in court.

Wondering if anyone here has knowledge of this aspect of the law.

 

[QuietM4]

Search warrants are required to have "particularity". This means, the warrant just can't say, "everything in Joe Blows house". It has to be specific; "Looking for a Glock 19 located in garage, den, or personally owned automobile A and B". It would be reasonable to assume a gun safe inside a garage would be the probable location for a firearm, so they opened it. If the person had a gun safe in an off site storage facility, that would not be covered by the search warrant if it was not specifically listed. It is very possible the FBI overstepped their authority, but that is for a court to decide.

No one has released the search warrant document, as far as I know. But I'm also not looking very hard. I don't really care that much about it, since I don't have a personal stake in the matter. And neither does anyone else who wants to armchair quarterback this issue.

 

[Tenring]

Ha - capitalizing on the Liberal Safe crap - our locks only store one code yours.

http://vlineind.com/

 

[YNOTAZ]

I see several problems with this action.

There was no gun involved in his supposed crime, so a search for a gun, and inside a gun safe would not be on a warrant unless someone lied to the court, the FBI wouldn’t do that. Somehow the FBI learned he had a gun safe, maybe illegal wire-tap, illegal surveillance, illegal demand for payment or credit card records, illegal demand of liberty safe customer records.

The charges give no indication of any weapon used by Hughes. To the contrary they identified him partially by his “black mechanics gloves” and the charging documents state that they saw his hands, often, waving the crowd on into the tunnel and helping push the police, no weapon at all.

Based on the charging documents, besides arresting Hughes, they had no cause to search his house, unless they lied to get a search warrant in addition to the arrest warrant. We know the FBI wouldn't do that.

This is just a load of crap to intimidate.

 

[Half Cocked]

Locksmith discusses electronic and manual safe locks.

[media]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hGVRYT3fzME[/media]

 

[QuietM4]

I see several problems with this action.

There was no gun involved in his supposed crime, so a search for a gun, and inside a gun safe would not be on a warrant unless someone lied to the court, the FBI wouldn’t do that. Somehow the FBI learned he had a gun safe, maybe illegal wire-tap, illegal surveillance, illegal demand for payment or credit card records, illegal demand of liberty safe customer records.

The charges give no indication of any weapon used by Hughes. To the contrary they identified him partially by his “black mechanics gloves” and the charging documents state that they saw his hands, often, waving the crowd on into the tunnel and helping push the police, no weapon at all.

Based on the charging documents, besides arresting Hughes, they had no cause to search his house, unless they lied to get a search warrant in addition to the arrest warrant. We know the FBI wouldn't do that.

This is just a load of crap to intimidate.

Looks like someone is the proud owner of a "Jump to Conclusions" mat. I can see how you got there.

No reason to believe the FBI hadn't legally obtained the suspects credit card statements. That is in the top 5 first steps the FBI would take when starting a full investigation of the guy. They see a charge for $1300 at "Dave's Locks & Safes" and it's not a big leap to assume he purchased a gun safe.

Just because it's called a "gun safe" in no way implies they were looking for a firearm. And again AFAIK, the search warrant has not been made public, so there is no way of telling what exactly they were looking for. There could be thumb drives, documents, etc inside the same safe where firearms are also stored.

I'm sure the guy has a lawyer. Even a mediocre lawyer can see all the possible holes in the case, they certainly don't need us helping them out.

 

[YNOTAZ]

No reason to believe the FBI hadn't legally obtained the suspects credit card statements. That is in the top 5 first steps the FBI would take when starting a full investigation of the guy. They see a charge for $1300 at "Dave's Locks & Safes" and it's not a big leap to assume he purchased a gun safe.

Just because it's called a "gun safe" in no way implies they were looking for a firearm. And again AFAIK, the search warrant has not been made public, so there is no way of telling what exactly they were looking for. There could be thumb drives, documents, etc inside the same safe where firearms are also stored.

I'm sure the guy has a lawyer. Even a mediocre lawyer can see all the possible holes in the case, they certainly don't need us helping them out.

No reason FBI hadn't legally obtained.....

Certainly is, look at the charging statement, no weapons, nothing hidden, Even the guy from Liberty said they showed them a warrant. The warrant was for Hughes house, there was no subpoena for Liberty records. You honestly think the FBI got a subpoena for three major credit card companies and several banks to find out the guy had a Liberty gun safe to go to liberty in the first place? Your own example; "he bought from Dave's lock and safe", if the FBI didn't get a subpoena for Liberty, you honestly think they did for old Dave?

There could be thumb drives, documents,...........

Once again what was the crime in the charging documents and what were they searching for. Which of his crimes would use a thumb drive?

No conclusions jumped to, the facts speak for themselves.

He was charged with two crimes, and the only items in the charging documents were the clothes he was wearing which helped identify and follow him in through several videos. Searching for those clothes would be legitimate but assuming he hid clothes in a gun safe when he didn't even know he was charged and had no idea he was being arrested in a raid two years later, that's a real stretch.

But you might be right, we all know the FBI wouldn't strong arm credit card companies, banks and comm carriers, then lie to a court to get a search warrant. They're way too professional for that.

Like I said, pure intimidation, MESSAGE: Don't Phuck with us....

 

[Tenring]

Locksmith discusses electronic and manual safe locks.

[media]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hGVRYT3fzME[/media]

This was very informative .... thanks

 

[campinginaz]

Locksmith discusses electronic and manual safe locks.

[media]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hGVRYT3fzME[/media]

Great video! I've never wanted an electronic lock just because I believe they have a better chance of failing and then you might need a locksmith. Not only that but then you won't have access to your firearms etc.

This entire thread has me convinced more than ever that I will never own an electronic lock.

For those that have one, you might consider changing out the lock for a mechanical lock.

 

[QuangTri]

Mechanical locks can farque up as I found out a year or so ago. Seems one of the "wheels" inside can slip so the intended digit does not line up just right. Got mine open with some rubber mallet thumping, but once open, I could not get the lock to operate again

No unlock even with perfect dialing. Whell slippage was the diagnosis of my new S&G lock refusing to open.

Been reading of a newer competitor "Big Red" lock that is claimed to be more reliable.

Dunno if It is worth the trouble to swap out over the replacement S&G lock I have now.
Thought I will probably change the combo sine Liberty has the existing one.

 

[Suck My Glock]

UPDATE: Missouri Attorney General Andrew Bailey announced his office was launching an investigation of Liberty Safe

https://townhall.com/tipsheet/spencerbrown/2023/09/12/missouri-ag-opens-probe-of-liberty-safe-in-wake-of-code-release-scandal-n2628297

Enter Missouri's attorney general, who points out that the FBI "did not have a court order ordering Liberty Safe to provide the safe’s combination" and is now investigating whether Liberty Safe is fully forthright with its customers about when and to whom it will grant access to their safe(s).

"In an era where the federal government weaponizes our national security apparatus against political opponents, the last thing we need is for a private company to sell out its fellow Americans under pressure from federal bureaucrats," remarked Attorney General Bailey.

"I am using every tool at my disposal to protect the rights of all Missourians," the attorney general pledged of his probe into Liberty Safe, just the latest in Bailey's work to protect consumers. "That’s why my office is opening this investigation to ensure Liberty Safe is not deceiving its customers in its terms of service."