Wish I would have known...UPDATED AND FIXED!!

[getsum]

A very abridged story: Years ago a gentleman on this forum was selling once pulled SS109 Steel Core Penetrators. I bought thousands...got a set of Full Length Dies and had the 550 rolling out the rounds. Finally decide to go and shoot some out of my AR and Uh Oh...some feed ok but on most rounds the bolt would go into full battery...WTF?? I shove the ammo in the closet and forget about it. After speaking with some friends they advise me that I needed Small Base Dies to reload for an AR and the Full Length will function in a bolt gun. Well shit!! So I says to myself...self, I got this. I order a set of Small Base Dies and I'll just resize my loaded rounds...not looking forward to resizing thousands of rounds however.

As I started the process I finally stopped after a few rounds to inspect the outcome and as the pic shows it didn't go so well...but wait, there's more. Upon extracting the last round from the resizing die I rip the base of the casing. Now I have a live round stuck in the sizing die...or what could be considered a barrel-less rifle. So I start with the inertia method and smack the die on my vice in a vein attempt to get the bullet to fall out...of course, no dice. Then came the needle nose pliers...and once again, no beuno. So I grab a glass of iced tea and reassess the situation. I don't load compressed rounds and knew I had room in the case between the bullet and powder. So I gently tap the bullet into the case with a punch, dump out the powder and proceed to tap the case out of the die...Voila, it worked.

This story ends with an ad I'm about to put in the WTB section...a bolt gun in .223.

All of this could have been avoided if I had only known.

So the question is: Does this Small Base vs Full Length Die rule apply to all calibers that an AR and Bolt gun have in common?

 

[Flash]

I have a few ARs and so do my friends that I shoot with every week and not one of them owns a small base die for .223, nor do I. I'd be willing to bet that most of them don't even know they exist, but I'll ask this coming week when we go shooting.

Apparently you happened upon a bunch of cases that were fired in a full auto gun or you set up your sizing die wrong. If I were a betting man, I'd bet you set up your sizing die wrong.

The moral of the story is to gauge the brass after you size it and if you have an extra tight chamber, then do the plunk test. If not, gauging is enough.

 

[getsum]

Sizing die cranked all the way down to shell plate and backed off a quarter turn. I agree that I should have conducted more due diligence prior to proceeding with the quantity I reloaded however.

http://bulletin.accurateshooter.com/2015/05/intro-to-full-length-dies-neck-sizing-dies-and-small-base-dies/

 

[Flash]

That's not the way I set up my .223 dies, not even close. I can pretty much guarantee you that if I set mine up like that I'd have exactly the problem you had.

What brand sizing die?

 

[samnev]

40 years shooting AR's never had to use small base sizing dies. But I have noticed that some 308 was picked up after firing thru an M60 the base of the case was expanded so much it was impossible to get the sizing die to full length resize. (the die wouldn't go alll the way down to the bottom of the case. Stopped trying to force it down. Put the brass I the Wilson case length gauge ass end first and it was obvious the head of the case was expanded way more than normal. Bras went into the scrap pile.

 

[getsum]

RCBS. Here's a clip from their website:

The Small Base Die set is intended for use for ammunition to be used in auto, semi-auto, and lever action rifles so that the loaded round chambers and extracts easily. The Small Base Sizer Die sizes the case from the shoulder to the head of the case a couple of thousandths smaller than a Full Length Sizer Die. In certain calibers it also sets the shoulder of the case back a thousandth or two more than the Full Length Sizer Die. The Full Length Die Set or Neck Die Set is not normally recommended for ammo to be used in auto, semi-auto, or lever action rifles. The Full Length Die set is recommended for ammunition used in bolt action rifles, particularly for ammunition to be used for hunting. The Neck Die Set can also be used to produce ammunition for use in bolt action rifles. The Neck Sizer Die sizes only the neck of the case so it will hold the bullet firmly. It does not size the body of the case nor does it set the shoulder back. Neck sized cases will usually chamber for three or more firings, depending on the powder charge and chamber dimensions. However, over a period of time, a slight drag will be noticed when the bolt is locked. At this point, cases will need to be full length sized and the shoulder set back so they will chamber and extract easily.

 

[getsum]

Just took the caliper to recheck a few sample rounds. I can meet or be slightly under the specs in the diagram. Colt LE6920 or Springfield Operator with the Wylde chamber have issues. Cheap ass PSA carbine assembled by myself with spare parts...no issues. :think:

 

[Flash]

I don't care what the RCBS website says, you don't need small base dies for .223 or .308. I've reloaded them for well over 20 years without small base and so has everyone I know.

And a caliper isn't sufficient for checking your ammo, you need a case gauge.

 

[Remow2112]

I had almost this exact problem. (AR15 would just be short of going into battery.) The solution was to get a case gauge. Discovered that my Dillon die flush to the plate was still about a fingernail width high on the case gauge. I need almost another half a turn on the sizing die. Have not had an issue since. I also discovered that all the factory 223 / 556 I had laying around is actually undersized compared to the case gauge. They are all just a little below the line on the case gauge.

HTH

 

[getsum]

This has certainly been a head scratcher. Guess I'll get a case guage and let you know how it turns out.

Thanks for the feedback.

 

[Flash]

You're going to find out with the case gauge that your sizing die isn't far enough down towards the shell holder unless I miss my guess.

I set mine up so there's a 0.003" gap between the shellholder and the die mouth. It gauges halfway between the two markers for headspace so it's set perfectly for me.

 

[Jack Dupp]

You absolutely do NOT need small base dies.

The bases of those cases look fine. It's your necks and shoulders that are messed up. I'd venture to guess that it's either brass that needs trimming or you have oversized the brass, squashing the shoulders and setting the headspace too far back. Or a combo of both.

 

[Jack Dupp]

On second thought, I realized those cartridges are after you tried to resize loaded rounds.

I'd agree with remow and flash. You didn't screw in the die enough.

 

[getsum]

I'd agree with remow and flash. You didn't screw in the die enough.

I just moved the Full Length die over to the Turret press and screwed it down until it was slightly tilting the head on the press. No change in case size so that was not the issue.

But I did just order a Lyman Multi Caliber Small Rifle Case Gauge so thanks again for bringing that to my attention.

 

[Flash]

You can't know if there was any change in the shoulder being set back without a case gauge. There's no way you can see 0.001" ~ 0.002" change.

Also, in an earlier post you said you touched the shellplate, then backed off 1/4 turn, but when you went to a turret, you obviously had to use a shell holder, which changes things substantially.

And informationally, it sounds like you're using RCBS dies and while I like RCBS, I have to note that of all the factory reloading equipment I have purchased that has been factory defective, every bit of it was RCBS. They made it right, but still, it makes me wonder. And yes, I've had a defective sizer die from them right from the factory.

Look forward to seeing what the gauge says.

 

[TheAccountant]

Have you stopped to figure out what part of the cartridge is keeping it from going into battery? Those pulls can be deformed enough that they’ll push the neck diameter out of spec enough to cause interference on a tighter chamber.

 

[300mag]

I have always set up my dies using the hornady headspace bushing comparator after having the same problem with my LR308.

 

[Bigfoot]

I'm a relative newb to reloading...only a handful of years under my belt. But, 223 was one of the first I started with. Only have full length sizing die from Dillon. Never had that issue. I made sure my cases were correct length and used case gauge/caliper. Have a Giraud Tri-Way trimmer as needed.

 

[cjr]

Many yrs. ago when I was shooting the AR in competition found out that the rounds did not pass the pluk test no matter how the die was set. Talking with some of the guys from the army AMU unit advised me to use small base dies which they found that it makes for a more accurate round and also will fit all chambers. So ask them how does it be a more accurate? IT makes the case more concentric, the bullet starts out straight in the bore. They also said that it will help with occasional flyer. I have been using SB dies ever since. One draw back is that it will shorten the use of the cartridge.

 

[Old Jeff H]

I have always set up my dies using the hornady headspace bushing comparator after having the same problem with my LR308.

This is really the way to go. Gives you the ultimate knowledge and control of how much you're setting those shoulders back. The RCBS Precision Mic does as well, but it's much slower to use.