What constitutes a "road" when you are shooting?

[tobylazur]

I'm looking for a place that I can stretch the legs out so to speak on two of my rifles. I'm looking at google earth, and anything up north I can't find long enough distances, anything in the desert or high desert is criss-crossed with little two track trails.

BLM says you can't shoot across any road, trail, or wash. Is that a hard stop?

Is any depression with erosion considered a wash? Is any track that's been driven on considered a trail?

 

[Vyadmirer]

Good question. If the wash deal is a thing, that takes out a lot of desert shooting spots as almost every mountain backstop has a wash at the base.

 

[knockonit]

lol, funny question as we had that with quite a few up at our shooting spot, couple newbies set up and were shooting across the road that led to the big range at back of area, explained to them their mishap, and well, didn't take it well, but as the traffic picked up, they got it, so what is a road, my guess is what or who ever calls it a road.
jmo
Rj

 

[Ballistic Therapy]

According to the Game and Fish
“Road” means any maintained right-of-way for public conveyance.

According to BLM
Roads are defined as a linear route managed for use by low-clearance vehicles having four or more wheels, and maintained for regular and continuous use.

Trails are linear routes managed for human-powered, stock, or OHV forms of transportation or for historical or heritage values. Trails are not generally managed for use by four-wheel

They don't specify what a wash is , but I would assume it would mean an obvious water shed.
How big or wide it must be ( I assume again ) would be determined by how the officer sees it.
It could also depend on what his mood is that day.

 

[Harrier]

IMO Most washes have names as well...

 

[TheAccountant]

I don't think of a wash as being managed or maintained for vehicle traffic. I think their official position would actually be not to drive in washes because of flash floods.

I think the point is use your head and be safe. If it's a wash that everyone runs their side by sides up and down, probably shouldn't shoot into it. If you're shooting hilltop to hilltop and there's a wash, or even a low traffic road, 100 feet below you, I wouldn't worry about it.

One of my spots is elevated over a dirt road. I don't doubt by definition I'm shooting over a road, but I'm high enough above it and have clear line of sight each direction that I don't worry about it. There are enough people out there doing dumb stuff that I would hope they wouldn't waste their time on me, but who knows.

 

[Vinnie B]

I was always under the impression it was a maintained road. With that in mind I have asked G&F officers what a maintained road is and they have said if it has ever had machinery on it it is a maintained road. So, pretty much anything but a wash or a two track, But legal and safe are 2 differnet things also

 

[Crippledtrigger]

Any 2 track is a road for these purposes. That's even been "settled" thru federal or state case law IIRC as it was discussed on the original site many many years ago cause someone was charged with shooting across a 2 track and lost.

 

[timelinex]

Any 2 track is a road for these purposes. That's even been "settled" thru federal or state case law IIRC as it was discussed on the original site many many years ago cause someone was charged with shooting across a 2 track and lost.

What is a "2 track"?

 

[Howlin Mad]

Any 2 track is a road for these purposes. That's even been "settled" thru federal or state case law IIRC as it was discussed on the original site many many years ago cause someone was charged with shooting across a 2 track and lost.

What is a "2 track"?

Something like this:

Or this:

 

[timelinex]

Any 2 track is a road for these purposes. That's even been "settled" thru federal or state case law IIRC as it was discussed on the original site many many years ago cause someone was charged with shooting across a 2 track and lost.

What is a "2 track"?

Something like this:

Or this:

Thanks, I get it now.

Any 2 track is a road for these purposes. That's even been "settled" thru federal or state case law IIRC as it was discussed on the original site many many years ago cause someone was charged with shooting across a 2 track and lost.

Basically it sounds like with the addition of "2 tracks", "road" covers all forest roads, trails and just about everything wide enough for something with 4 wheels to get through and has gotten through. I would be interested in seeing this court case you mentioned. Did he get a class 6 felony for unlawful discharge or was it just some kind of fine?

It seems to go against all definitions from BLM/G&F as provided a few posts ago. I'm not saying rangers can't cite you for whatever they deem fit and then you have to deal with the hassle later, but seems odd a court would contradict the departments own legal definitions.

EDIT:

Straight from the BLM website: https://www.blm.gov/programs/recreation/arizona/recreational-shooting

"Shooting across a road, trail, or wash is prohibited."

You can't be charged based on website language, but I'm guessing there is some kind of legal language somewhere if they say it on the website and someone lost in court argueing against it.

I know many long range spots, but none of them could survive that level of scrutiny. There are washes literally everywhere here in the desert. I'm not sure if I have ever seen someone shooting long range that isn't either along a 2 track or over washes. Even not considering very long range, it seems like almost everything that isn't just shooting <100yds into the side of a hill is probably breaking the law.

 

[timelinex]

Anyone know what laws the officer would charge you based on if they caught you shooting across a trail on public BLM lands?

The Arizona statues: https://www.azleg.gov/viewdocument/?docName=https://www.azleg.gov/ars/13/03107.htm

The only thing AZ statues mention is within a municipality/city limits which I assume BLM land used for long range shooting is not, and even if it is, it is more than the 1 mile from an occupied structure that makes it an exclusion according to section C.8 . Nothing about roads/washes/etc... I know each city has their own laws that are much stricter, but we aren't talking about city land.

The laws I found associated with BLM here: https://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/43/part-8360/subpart-8365
Do not say anything about shooting other than no shooting at recreational sites, which is obvious.

The laws I found for US Forest service, which doesn't apply to our discussion exactly, but some may find interesting since we have alot of forest land as well (Tonto). https://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/36/261.10

(d) Discharging a firearm or any other implement capable of taking human life, causing injury, or damaging property as follows:
(1) In or within 150 yards of a residence, building, campsite, developed recreation site or occupied area, or
(2) Across or on a National Forest System road or a body of water adjacent thereto, or in any manner or place whereby any person or property is exposed to injury or damage as a result in such discharge.
(3) Into or within any cave.

Looks like the Forest service DOES specify forest system roads and bodies of water. So looks like any shooting that isn't off a road and into the side of a mountain is spelled out as a clear NO-NO on US forest land. Penalty shows as follow:

Any violation of the prohibitions of this part (261) shall be punished by a fine of not more than $500 or imprisonment for not more than six months or both pursuant to title 16 U.S.C., section 551, unless otherwise provided.

I am not a lawyer, but sounds like at worst it is a misdemeanor and fine (not that this isn't bad!). But it's not a felony, like violating the state unlawful discharge law.

I don't see anything like that for BLM land though which is what would apply to our discussions in this thread. Maybe someone can point me to it?

 

[timelinex]

Anyone have any comments?

 

[martyd]

Hi,
From my experience, which is multi state and over many years I have found the following:
1 - Use common sense & think about what you are about to do before doing it. When young I didn't think very well, and paid for it.
2 - When shooting on private property, state property, forest property, etc.. and you shouldn't, which I have done and did not know it, the person who "catches you" usually is understanding. Be polite and apologize and leave.

Three examples which happened to me:
First - I was shooting, sort of hunting rabbits on private unmarked farmland. The owner showed up and was a little pissed. I apologized and said I would immediately leave. Being polite and apologetic impressed the farmer and he told me I could shoot and hunt in a specific area on his land and to respect the other animals, cows, and not shoot them and leave no trash.

Second - I was hunting rabbits and squirrels with a friend on private unmarked farmland. A farmer with the local police showed up. We apologized and said we would leave immediately, the farmer was OK with this. The farmer and officer accompanied both of us to our car. Then it happened: I had locked my keys in the trunk of the car. We could not leave and would not let us go to the farm house and call a tow company (cell phones did not exist at that time). We were both arrested and taken to the police station. Locked in the holding area, but we were provided with baloney sandwiches and milk while we waited for our parents to arrive to bail us out. At the hearing the farmer dropped the charges because we were apologetic and tried to leave but wanted to teach us a lesson. Funny, after 60 years I still remember the farmers name.

Third: - I was in Wyoming with a friend target shooting when a Park Ranger showed up. He said we were on park land. We apologized and said we didn't realize that and we would immediately leave. He was understanding and even gave us a map showing the boundaries of the park.

 

[was21]

Funny story.
A few of us were out doing some long range stuff at one of our old favorite places we called rifle hill. There was a wash parallel on the left and the road off the hill to our targets out around 600 yards parallel on the right.
At about 300 or so was a single track crossing over.
Up walks an unmarked fame and gish fella ( he couldn’t get his vehicle up the hill) and proceeded to tell us we were shooting across a road.
I asked him what the name or number of the road he was talking about was and he pointed to the single track.
Got out the latest maps from the state land trust office of the area and asked him to show me where this ‘ road’ was.
He declined to even look.

After he sat there for about 5-10 minutes watching us shoot he asked about one of the rifles so I said “ here, give it a couple of shots.... all dialed in for the steel”
Got him set up with a little coaching and he winged a few off at the steel. Didn’t hit anything but was grinning like a possum.

He started up again about his ‘ road’ and I busted out laughing.

He says , what are you chuckling about?

I replied ... “start writing tickets .... and include yourself.”

His smile went away and he shuffled on down the hill. Never saw him again.

Anyway... it was funny at the time when his face dropped.

 

[Ballistic Therapy]

It doesn't have to be on a map to be considered a road.