Turkish Semi auto shotguns

[madmike]

kingjoey do you have a website?Also what do you think of the Black Aces Pro series X or the SMAX

 

[Kingjoey]

kingjoey do you have a website?Also what do you think of the Black Aces Pro series X or the SMAX

The website is kingarmory.com but its down right now until i get a chance to overhaul the site. I haven't had any personal experience with the Black Aces or SMAX unfortunately.

 

[Kingjoey]

Let us know how these shotguns turn out especially under match conditions where you are firing alot of rounds along with slugs.

I have a 1st gen Escort that has eaten over 12k rounds, have used it so much its been refinished twice

 

[kenpoprofessor]

Let us know how these shotguns turn out especially under match conditions where you are firing alot of rounds along with slugs.

I have a 1st gen Escort that has eaten over 12k rounds, have used it so much its been refinished twice

I have the Slugger 1st gen I bought when I was in Kalifornistan, still going strong, not near as many rounds as yours though

Have a great, gun carryin', Kenpo day

Clyde

 

[XM177E2]

[mention]Kingjoey[/mention]

Have you come up with any reliability/performance modifications to do to the MPA internals?

 

[Kingjoey]

@Kingjoey

Have you come up with any reliability/performance modifications to do to the MPA internals?

There's some basic tuning/fitting that can be done, have a design for an improved self-regulating gas piston, will be making those for the Rem1187 also

 

[knockonit]

haven't had the pleasure of a turkey made semi auto, but have had and have quite a few over unders, side by sides, and a pump or two, no complaints, as they seem to hit what i aim at, hehehe, most of the time, thank god i carry a 30 rd bandalier, i'll get'm one way or another,
Rj

 

[XM177E2]

@Kingjoey

Have you come up with any reliability/performance modifications to do to the MPA internals?

There's some basic tuning/fitting that can be done, have a design for an improved self-regulating gas piston, will be making those for the Rem1187 also

 

[XM177E2]

[mention]Kingjoey[/mention]
Have you tried running the Aguila 1 3/4” Minishells through the MPA?
I doubt they would cycle and feed reliably but Curious if they have been tested to run in the MPA.

 

[Kingjoey]

@Kingjoey
Have you tried running the Aguila 1 3/4” Minishells through the MPA?
I doubt they would cycle and feed reliably but Curious if they have been tested to run in the MPA.

I haven't tried those, I tend to not use Minis in semi-autos anyways

 

[XM177E2]

 

[Guntottenchef]

[highlight=yellow][/highlight]

First off, you can't discount "Turkish" as crap simply because some guns made in Turkey suck. My Turkish-made Zenith MP5 clone is spot-on. Never had issues with it and it is a GREAT SBR.

But, on the subject of Turkish shotguns, I recently became aware that Benelli's patent on the M4 expired, which is why there are clones coming out right now. So what did I do? I did some research on the clones, then bought ONE specific model of the 3 clones I am aware of along with a real Benelli M4 to compare them. From my research, there are at least 3 clones (all Turkish made as far as I know) out at the time of me writing this that I am aware of:

Charles Daly 601 DPS
SDS Imports S4 (aka Panzer M4)
SDS Imports TAC-12

I researched them like only an internet junkie can do and ended up purchasing a new Benelli M4 (M1014/11701) and a new SDS Imports TAC-12. Was also going to get the S4 to compare, but opted not to spend another ~$500-600 to get that as the two I did get were expensive enough.

I did buy some upgrades for them. On the M4, I really missed my LE edition with the adjustable stock, so I purchased the 3 position recoil tube to "fix" it, along with Dave's Metal Works 7 round mag tube (with wolf spring). Of course, I also purchased the Boatch KZ handle and the requisite 922r parts (hammer, disconnector, trigger). For the TAC-12, I purchased the Benelli Supernova 5 position complete recoil tube (with the guts) and the Supernova adjustable stock and pistol grip. I had done that mod on my Benelli M3 Super90 previously, so I knew it would take some work and some light customization to do it - but I wasn't willing to pay the crazy cost of the full M4 telescopic kit and furniture. The Supernova stock doesn't look as good as the M4 tele stock, but functionally, it's probably even a bit better anyway.

To be clear, all my thoughts thus far on each of these shotguns mentioned above are based on appearance and handling only - not shooting.

That said, the CD clone had a lot of little things that were obviously done for cost savings, and almost every video review of it says what a horrible PoS it is. Plastic parts like the rear sight, rail, etc... I'm sure some people have one that works fine, but I wasn't willing to take the risk on that one. Further, it doesn't appear to be an exact clone or one of great quality even if it's functional.

As for the SDS Imports S4 - that one may function like a Benelli M4, but it has some appearance things that didn't look 100% correct to me that seemed to be fixed and addressed with the slightly more expensive SDS Imports TAC-12. For example, if you look at the front of the S4, you will see that the barrel protrudes a bit farther out past the end of the mag tube than the TAC-12 and M4. The trigger guard is oddly shaped, the finish on the loading ramp appears to just be blued, the rear sight was more "crude", the bolts used don't match the M4 and TAC-12, and the overall fit/finish appear to be inferior to both the TAC-12 and M4. The latter point about the fit/finish is what SDS Imports said is the big differentiator between the S4 and TAC-12.

As for my M4 and TAC-12, I received them earlier this week and stripped them both down to the bare receiver to compare and they are almost identical. Other than the TAC-12 stock and the recoil tube it uses under it, the only differences I could find were:

• The magazine tube used a collar where it screws into the receiver where Benelli uses a machined step in the tube
• The overall finishes are comparable in quality, but the TAC-12 is a bit darker overall than the M4
• The loading gate/lifter on the TAC-12 is a matte chrome type finish and on the M4, it's a matte bronze/gold-ish finish
• The TAC-12's hammer and disconnector are a gray color while they are black on the Benelli
• The OEM trigger on the Benelli is a parked color and the OEM trigger on the TAC-12 is black
• The rear of the receiver (with the stock removed) on the TAC-12 doesn't have an index hole for a pistol grip stock whereas the M4 does
• The TAC-12 has removable chokes and the M1014/11701 doesn't (though other M4 models do)
• The Benelli handguards say "left" and "right" on the inside, while the TAC-12's don't

Those are the only differences I could find upon inspection. I even swapped parts to see if they'd fit - and they do. Even the TAC-12's mag tube follower matches the Benelli's down to the chromed red color. All-in-all, the TAC-12 is absolutely a clone of the M4 in appearance and build. I didn't really see where any corners were cut in a significant way other than the magazine tube profile.

When I had them apart, I put the 922r parts in both shotguns, and on the M4, I added the DMW 7 round mag tube, and wolf spring - the DMW mag tube matched the M4's finish perfectly. I will add the 3 position recoil tube later this week. On the TAC-12, I removed the OEM 5rd mag tube and replaced it with the OEM Benelli 5rd mag tube that I took off the M4, then used the OEM Benelli magazine spring (which was considerably longer than the OEM TAC-12 magazine spring) and added the KZ +2 mag tube extension. It didn't match exactly, but was closer to the Benelli's M4 mag tube color than the darker black of the TAC-12's color. I also removed the TAC-12's OEM stock and retrofitted a Benelli Supernova 5-position collapsible stock. The buffer tube replacement was fairly easy, but the Pistol Grip required some fitting to get it to work properly. I was already familiar doing that custom job because I did the same Supernova stock mod to my Benelli M3 Super90 previously. Anyway, I got the stock and grip on, reassembled and it looks good.

End result is that I turned my ~$650 TAC-12 "M4 clone" into a ~$1500 "M4 clone" . Still considerably less than a Benelli M4 with a LE adjustable stock though. Now to take them out shooting at some point.

Hi thanks for the info question have you shot the tac12 are you happy with it and would you purchase again I’m looking at one at my local shop for 750$ I know that alittle high but there also an s4 for 200$ less but the finish doesn’t seem as nice any thoughts??

 

[XM177E2]

@Kingjoey

Have you come up with any reliability/performance modifications to do to the MPA internals?

There's some basic tuning/fitting that can be done, have a design for an improved self-regulating gas piston, will be making those for the Rem1187 also

I finally got out and put a few boxes through my Escort MPA. The +2 Mag Ext from [mention]Kingjoey[/mention] (w/ Wolf Rem 870 xp spring) and custom charge handle from [mention]Kingjoey[/mention] were superb and really enhance the usability of the gun.

I have the factory Doorbuster muzzle brake which I never used but decided to throw it on this time. I didn’t bust any doors but the muzzle brake did make a difference. Not too bad .

I ran a variety of shells and can confirm that weak bird loads do not cycle reliably (known issue)
Aguilla shortys do not feed (double feed) but are an absolute pleasure to shoot (recoil like an AR-15) they do eject well and if an adapter was available to control feeding, they would be a lot of fun and possibly a viable round.

All my heavier loads like 2 3/4” and 3” Buckshot run flawlessly.
3” Mag Slugs cycle for as long as your shoulder can tolerate them.

My only complaints (on my MPA) are the absolutely horrendous Trigger. I’m guessing the pull is around 8-10 lbs and the creep is crap and the rear sight which belongs on an airsoft gun.

I’ll need to dive in and smooth up the trigger and get a red dot sight.

 

[Kingjoey]

I can work some magic on that triggergroup if ya want. The 1st Gen Escort I got here is stupid fast to shoot, its an easy trigger to tune

 

[XM177E2]

I can work some magic on that triggergroup if ya want. The 1st Gen Escort I got here is stupid fast to shoot, its an easy trigger to tune

Thanks for the offer.
I dove into it yesterday. I did some light polishing on the trigger sear as well as a little on the hammer. The trigger spring should be disposed of and never talked about again . Actually I spent about 5 minutes tuning it and now it’s about 80% smoother and 50% lighter. I took 1 coil out of the hammer spring which helped a little. Overall i’m pleased with my results. Probably not as perfect as yours but it is dramatically improved. I’d love to replace all those springs in the group as they are junk.

I’ll need to run it and see how it shoots now.

Any suggestions for dealing with the gas piston? Specifically it’s prone to carbon fouling pretty quickly.
The first shoulder on it (closest to gas port) gets burn spots on one side which are not easily removed.

Thanks again @Kingjoey

 

[Kingjoey]

Not really anything that can be done about the piston, the gas ports are going to leave a spot on anything. Its like the front of an AK piston, its always going to be discolored. Hoppes and a brass brush do a good job cleaning it though.

 

[XM177E2]

Yeah, I have an assortment of cleaners and the stinkiest but most effective has been the Hoppes. Hard to improve on a legend.