The Army’s SAW and M4 replacements;

[428cj]

The Army has selected 6.8mm as the new common round for both its Squad Automatic Weapon and M4 replacement
https://www.armytimes.com/news/your-army/2018/10/05/the-armys-saw-and-m4-replacements-will-both-fire-this-more-accurate-and-deadly-round/

 

[YNOTAZ]

Let's hear it for a ton of MilSurp!

 

[Steve_In_29]

The article is almost a year old and I seem to recall the Army backtracking on this.

 

[QuietM4]

The article is almost a year old and I seem to recall the Army backtracking on this.

It’s part of the never-ending “search” for the next generation of infantry weapon. Lots of submissions, no winner yet.

 

[Steve_In_29]

As a short range heavy hitter the 6.8 makes sense in the M4 but for a distance weapon like the SAW the 6.5G would be more appropriate as it over takes the 6.8 after 100yds.

 

[delta6]

As a short range heavy hitter the 6.8 makes sense in the M4 but for a distance weapon like the SAW the 6.5G would be more appropriate as it over takes the 6.8 after 100yds.

The attraction to the 6.8 is logistics. Scopes, sights and other "stuff" ballistically mirrors the 7.62 NATO round.

 

[Steve_In_29]

The attraction to the 6.8 is logistics. Scopes, sights and other "stuff" ballistically mirrors the 7.62 NATO round.

That's not a good enough reason to field a ballistically inferior round though.

 

[storage_man]

The attraction to the 6.8 is logistics. Scopes, sights and other "stuff" ballistically mirrors the 7.62 NATO round.

That's not a good enough reason to field a ballistically inferior round though.

Agree - All of these alternative rounds, maybe equal to their respective projected replacements, but nowhere are they more superior (I haven't found that proof anywhere).

 

[Steve_In_29]

That's not a good enough reason to field a ballistically inferior round though.

Agree - All of these alternative rounds, maybe equal to their respective projected replacements, but nowhere are they more superior (I haven't found that proof anywhere).

Sorry but not sure what you mean.

Both the 6.8 and 6.5G are superior to the 5.56 in every way except weight. Though the new poly cased ammo will alleviate some of that.

The point of my quoted comment was that the 6.5 was a better all around cartridge then the 6.8. The 6.5 retains more energy at longer distances then the 6.8 and gives near .308 performance out of a smaller lighter (as compared to .308) rifle/ammo combo.

 

[338lapua]

If this was about anything other than some dod asshole setting himself up for a retirement job they would change the 55 grain bullet out for a 75-77 grain bullet which makes it longer range or dump the 5.56 and just use the 7.62x51 in new M-16's or whatever they want to call the new rifle as well as in the saw's. Very simple solution. The 55 grain bullet has never been a good choice for the M-16 The AR-10 should have been chosen over the AR-15 based design but someone needed a good job after retirement or a payoff.

Personally I would dump all but the MK262 ammo and order new 1-7 twist barrels and matched optics for the round and call it good. Also stop issuing rifles with shot out barrels. This is all that is really needed as the MK-262 is proven to 600 yards and beyond. It has always been a poor bullet problem with the M-16, not the round just the lousy bullet selection. There is data out there about the MK-262 ammo. There is also a well documented fire fight where there were so many head shots to 600 yards that the FBI was called in to investigate a couple guys that did the shooting. With the right bullet the 5.56 is a lethal round, this is about I want to be the guy who got the military a new round and now I can get me a million dollar a year job in the defense industry.

Plastic cased ammo kills the reloading market for reasonably priced once fired brass where tens of millions of pieces have been sold to shooters, probably one of the reasons they want this to f*** the citizen shooting market with non reloadable crap.


``````

 

[Steve_In_29]

If this was about anything other than some dod a**hole setting himself up for a retirement job they would change the 55 grain bullet out for a 75-77 grain bullet which makes it longer range or dump the 5.56 and just use the 7.62x51 in new M-16's or whatever they want to call the new rifle as well as in the saw's. Very simple solution. The 55 grain bullet has never been a good choice for the M-16 The AR-10 should have been chosen over the AR-15 based design but someone needed a good job after retirement or a payoff.

Personally I would dump all but the MK262 ammo and order new 1-7 twist barrels and matched optics for the round and call it good. Also stop issuing rifles with shot out barrels. This is all that is really needed as the MK-262 is proven to 600 yards and beyond. It has always been a poor bullet problem with the M-16, not the round just the lousy bullet selection. There is data out there about the MK-262 ammo. There is also a well documented fire fight where there were so many head shots to 600 yards that the FBI was called in to investigate a couple guys that did the shooting. With the right bullet the 5.56 is a lethal round, this is about I want to be the guy who got the military a new round and now I can get me a million dollar a year job in the defense industry.

Plastic cased ammo kills the reloading market for reasonably priced once fired brass where tens of millions of pieces have been sold to shooters, probably one of the reasons they want this to f*** the citizen shooting market with non reloadable crap.


``````

I would venture it has a LOT more to do with reducing the load our guys have to carry into combat. The military doesn't exist to provide cheap brass for reloaders and if it f***s over the reloaders to provide our military with better equipment then that's just tuff.

Even with the SOST rounds the 5.56 is still marginal at distance and packs less punch then the 6.5 would.

Simply going to 7.62x51 across the board would involve replacing every M16 with a bigger/heavier rifle and negating the size/weight savings the SAW offers the squad over the 240G. Thus seriously increasing the load carried into combat.

 

[338lapua]

So the 6.8 rounds are lighter then? Or is that only with them made of plastic that they are lighter?

 

[Steve_In_29]

So the 6.8 rounds are lighter then? Or is that only with them made of plastic that they are lighter?

The plastic rounds are lighter and fit in a 5.56 size weapon.

Even if the military sticks with 5.56 it is likely they will switch to plastic cased rounds.

 

[338lapua]

Can't wait to see photos of chambers with melted rounds in them. Plastic made by lowest bidder, what can go wrong. Funny how they have been carrying the weight for years now it needs to be reduced. Looks like it is time to start buying brass auctions again if they are ditching brass as once fired will go up.

Looked into the plastic cased ammo, found no real positive articles but did find reports of a few blown up guns and one that blew up a FAL magazine. Found some test data where it said velocities were lower than brass cased ammo and accuracy was not the same.

Found Mac Ammunition who is now owned by Nammo with some 50 cal ammo that looks interesting but nothing on their 5.56 or 7.62 lines of ammo. Did find info on Mac also looking into ceramic technology for ammunition which makes more sense than plastic as ceramics will soon dominate turbine engine production in place of inconel

True velocity looks interesting and they are firing non stop through mini guns with their ammo.

If this goes beyond military markets it will endanger the reloaders especially if they eliminate brass cases or for a guy like me make a lot of money for me making conventional ammunition components. I really don't want the government able to control ammunition supplies as this is a one firing and done.

 

[17-21-23]

If this was about anything other than some dod a**hole setting himself up for a retirement job they would change the 55 grain bullet out for a 75-77 grain bullet which makes it longer range or dump the 5.56 and just use the 7.62x51 in new M-16's or whatever they want to call the new rifle as well as in the saw's. Very simple solution. The 55 grain bullet has never been a good choice for the M-16 The AR-10 should have been chosen over the AR-15 based design but someone needed a good job after retirement or a payoff.

Personally I would dump all but the MK262 ammo and order new 1-7 twist barrels and matched optics for the round and call it good. Also stop issuing rifles with shot out barrels. This is all that is really needed as the MK-262 is proven to 600 yards and beyond. It has always been a poor bullet problem with the M-16, not the round just the lousy bullet selection. There is data out there about the MK-262 ammo. There is also a well documented fire fight where there were so many head shots to 600 yards that the FBI was called in to investigate a couple guys that did the shooting. With the right bullet the 5.56 is a lethal round, this is about I want to be the guy who got the military a new round and now I can get me a million dollar a year job in the defense industry.

Plastic cased ammo kills the reloading market for reasonably priced once fired brass where tens of millions of pieces have been sold to shooters, probably one of the reasons they want this to f*** the citizen shooting market with non reloadable crap.


``````

When I was in we never had 55 FMJ. We had 62 and I believe 72 gr bullets. 55 FMJ I believe is just for the public. Never had them.

 

[gumpy18]

55grain fmj was vietnam time, replaced long time ago with 62grain bullets.

 

[17-21-23]

That's what I thought.

 

[338lapua]

55grain fmj was vietnam time, replaced long time ago with 62grain bullets.

The 62 grain that likes to tumble. Shooting 855 at 100 yards I have seen them keyhole targets. 62 grain lead core I never had the problem with. Heard a lot of talk about how the 855 ball was not accurate either.

 

[17-21-23]

Well in my opinion if it hits a person straight on they are going to have a bad day. If it hits them while its tumbling they are in for quite an adventure.

 

[Steve_In_29]

The 62 grain that likes to tumble. Shooting 855 at 100 yards I have seen them keyhole targets. 62 grain lead core I never had the problem with. Heard a lot of talk about how the 855 ball was not accurate either.

What barrel twist were you shooting. The original 1-12 WON'T stabilize the 62 grainers causing them to tumble.