ducatilover
Member
Considering buying a few acres north of lake pleasant fire recreational use (target shooting, atv, camping. What do I need to know about shooting an privates land in yavapi county? Land will be about 20 acres.
Shooting on private land
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Harrier
Member
about the only law I know of that could affect the local use is that you have to be 1/4 mile (440 yds) from an occupied dwelling. But if you get 20A then that probably isn't going to affect you.
There might be fire restrictions on adjacent property that you would want to keep in mind during certain times of the year, in case a fire spreads from your property to it.
...this is just my best guess, as there may be other laws or restrictions I'm not aware of- never could afford that much land.
There might be fire restrictions on adjacent property that you would want to keep in mind during certain times of the year, in case a fire spreads from your property to it.
...this is just my best guess, as there may be other laws or restrictions I'm not aware of- never could afford that much land.
Suck My Glock
Member
If you truly will be in Yavapai, you should be fine. Peoria annexed nearly every thing around Lake Pleasant years ago that is still within Maricopa County. Shooting within those bounds, despite being private property would still be discharging within city limits. When Church Road was still open, that was the case, but Peoria P.D. never enforced it thankfully.
I would worry however about other people happening upon your parcel. With that area being so popular for atv riders and various other outdoorsmen, when they come across your area which will have obvious evidence of being a shooting spot, they may not know (or care) that it is private and might decide to shoot there themselves,...perhaps leaving all the nasty crap so many slob shooters do.
I would worry however about other people happening upon your parcel. With that area being so popular for atv riders and various other outdoorsmen, when they come across your area which will have obvious evidence of being a shooting spot, they may not know (or care) that it is private and might decide to shoot there themselves,...perhaps leaving all the nasty crap so many slob shooters do.
pvreb
Member
20 acres won't necessarily ensure 440 yards from an occupied building. By my calculations a square 20 acre parcel is approximately 311 yards on a side. Before you buy it might be a good idea to look carefully into the area.
I"ve been trying to find and buy 40-50 in the verde valley area, just for a private little enclave, with intent to have a shooting spot. I looked at 20 acres, and problem was it was marginal at best to keep neighbors away. so as to not have whiners on a good shooting day.
and finding a piece with a good back stop has been paramount to the location of a decent piece, either a wash large enough to set up a distance range and or a nice size gopher hill to stop the stuff.
of course one can have a piece of equipment make a divot and build a back drop, but again a cost added. and being north of pleasant, just might be tough to get to.
good luck, sounds like a sound idea. with a little more investigation
Rj
and finding a piece with a good back stop has been paramount to the location of a decent piece, either a wash large enough to set up a distance range and or a nice size gopher hill to stop the stuff.
of course one can have a piece of equipment make a divot and build a back drop, but again a cost added. and being north of pleasant, just might be tough to get to.
good luck, sounds like a sound idea. with a little more investigation
Rj
An acre is 220 yards wide by 22 yards. Multiply that by 20 acres, would you have enough area to shoot in a distance of 440 yards?
I have 40 acres up north and I comply based on placement of our neighbors structures. Helps to have an open channel to let them know your plans before. I got lucky having some good elevation on my lot for back drop. A standard 40 acre is 1320'x1320' (440ydsx440yds). Remember that your neighbor can place a structure anywhere on his lot to in many cases 40' of property line and screw up the best of your intended plans. Good luck
ducatilover
Member
The property I was looking at is in zoned residential. Would that be an issue? It's approx 20 miles north of lake pleasant on the crown king road. Google maps show there are some homes near by but not sure if they are within the 1/4 mile restriction. Any thoughts?
Steve_In_29
Member
As has been mentioned 20 acres isn't as much land as it sounds like.
My neighbor and I are both on 36ish acre plots (catty-corner from each other and slightly overlapping) and our houses are at opposite ends of those. From my back door to his front door is only 537yds (measured with rangefinder). If he were to put a structure on the closest part of his lot to mine it would be within the 440yds.
My neighbor and I are both on 36ish acre plots (catty-corner from each other and slightly overlapping) and our houses are at opposite ends of those. From my back door to his front door is only 537yds (measured with rangefinder). If he were to put a structure on the closest part of his lot to mine it would be within the 440yds.
mike400
Member
Can I come shoot there 
Harrier
Member
An acre is 43,560 sq ft. It can be 1' wide x 43560' long up to 208.71' x 208.71' and it can be configured in any shape... square, trapezoid, pie,L, Zig-Zag etc. take x 20 for 20Ac.
One way to measure the distance would be to use an arc from the closest corner of the neighbor's occupied structure and that would define the safe setback zone.
Now, I interpret the the law as meaning you can't be shooting from within that safe zone but as long as you are outside of that (and I believe your impact area should also be outside it), then I don't think there would be an issue if the bullet travels across part of the safe area arc, especially if traveling away. A strict reading of the law seems to only indicate the spot where the firearm is discharged from - not the path of the bullet nor the POI.
Up until now I've only read in the Fish & Game regulations that indicate the required distance is 1/4 mile (440yd) from an OCCUPIED structure. IIRC I also read in the G&F regs that even if you have written consent from a neighbor, they can rescind it at any time and don't have to tell you. I'm not a lawyer so from a layman's point of view and for discussion sake...
I looked into this law further and I find various problematic contradictions that could be an issue depending on who is interpreting it... here is my opinion on how I read it.
Looking at section 13-3107 (copied below), it seems to be the specific section of law that governs this situation under the title of Unlawful Discharge of Firearms... which is probably what you would be charged with...
Item B. indicates it is a class 6 felony, and will probably be charged as such, however Section 13-604 is specified as typically applying to this offense, which allows for a slightly less serious misdemeanor charge. However it is court discretionary and depending on circumstances/additional charges,prosecutor, it could be charged under 13-704 which is more serious and carries some hefty penalties.
13-3107, Item C (a) indicates the definition of "occupied structure" as... "(a) "Occupied structure" means any building in which, at the time of the firearm's discharge, a reasonable person from the location where a firearm is discharged would expect a person to be present."
This seems to also imply that if the shooter doesn't expect anyone to be there then he could conclude that this restriction is not applicable, based on his 'expectations'. However the arresting officer will likely be considered a "more reasonable" person.
Another consideration is referenced section 13-3101 (Definitions) which defines 'occupied Structure' as...
"6. “Occupied structure” means any building, object, vehicle, watercraft, aircraft or place with sides and a floor that is separately securable from any other structure attached to it, that is used for lodging, business, transportation, recreation or storage and in which one or more human beings either are or are likely to be present or so near as to be in equivalent danger at the time the discharge of a firearm occurs. Occupied structure includes any dwelling house, whether occupied, unoccupied or vacant."
This definition expands the scope and meaning of the term 'Occupied structure' considerably over what 13-3107 seems to say.
Another troubling item is 13-3107 C.8. "More than one mile from any occupied structure as defined in section 13-3101."
This seems to imply that the 1/4 mile rule mentioned in (C) 3 only applies if a city,town or county implemented such and if not then the state standard is 1 mile instead of 1/4 mile (except when hunting because Game & Fish adopted the 1/4 mile rule)???
So if you buy property outside a municipal boundary and the county has no shooting distance ordnance, then do you have to follow a state mandated 1 mile safe zone??
Since vehicles are included in the definitions, and they usually need a road, what if you are shooting within a mile of a road, even in the opposite direction (as in your property may have a dirt access road off a paved road but it is less than 1 mile from the road to the back of your property where you are shooting). ||--------[_________X}------>
Lets say your outside the 1 mile compliance zone and someone is camping in their tent or trailer over the next hill- is that an occupied structure that now requires 1/4 mile separation? Do we measure as the crow flies?
Section D.2(c) seems to allow you to build an underground range...
This is getting more complicated as I read further... this is why it is important to
1. keep liberals out of government and
2 support AZCDL as they get changes made to laws that can bite us....
======================================================
13-3107. Unlawful discharge of firearms; exceptions; classification; definitions
A. A person who with criminal negligence discharges a firearm within or into the limits of any municipality is guilty of a class 6 felony.
B. Notwithstanding the fact that the offense involves the discharge of a deadly weapon, unless a dangerous offense is alleged and proven pursuant to section 13-704, subsection L, section 13-604 applies to this offense.
C. This section does not apply if the firearm is discharged:
1. As allowed pursuant to chapter 4 of this title.
2. On a properly supervised range.
3. To lawfully take wildlife during an open season established by the Arizona game and fish commission and subject to the limitations prescribed by title 17 and Arizona game and fish commission rules and orders.
This paragraph does not prevent a city, town or county from adopting an ordinance or rule restricting the discharge of a firearm within one-fourth mile of an occupied structure without the consent of the owner or occupant of the structure.
For the purposes of this paragraph:
(a) "Occupied structure" means any building in which, at the time of the firearm's discharge, a reasonable person from the location where a firearm is discharged would expect a person to be present.
(b) "Take" has the same meaning prescribed in section 17-101.
4. For the control of nuisance wildlife by permit from the Arizona game and fish department or the United States fish and wildlife service.
5. By special permit of the chief of police of the municipality.
6. As required by an animal control officer in the performance of duties as specified in section 9-499.04.
7. Using blanks.
8. More than one mile from any occupied structure as defined in section 13-3101.
9. In self-defense or defense of another person against an animal attack if a reasonable person would believe that deadly physical force against the animal is immediately necessary and reasonable under the circumstances to protect oneself or the other person.
D. For the purposes of this section:
1. "Municipality" means any city or town and includes any property that is fully enclosed within the city or town.
2. "Properly supervised range" means a range that is any of the following:
(a) Operated by a club affiliated with the national rifle association of America, the amateur trapshooting association, the national skeet association or any other nationally recognized shooting organization, or by any public or private school.
(b) Approved by any agency of the federal government, this state or a county or city within which the range is located.
(c) Operated with adult supervision for shooting air or carbon dioxide gas operated guns, or for shooting in underground ranges on private or public property.
One way to measure the distance would be to use an arc from the closest corner of the neighbor's occupied structure and that would define the safe setback zone.
Now, I interpret the the law as meaning you can't be shooting from within that safe zone but as long as you are outside of that (and I believe your impact area should also be outside it), then I don't think there would be an issue if the bullet travels across part of the safe area arc, especially if traveling away. A strict reading of the law seems to only indicate the spot where the firearm is discharged from - not the path of the bullet nor the POI.
Up until now I've only read in the Fish & Game regulations that indicate the required distance is 1/4 mile (440yd) from an OCCUPIED structure. IIRC I also read in the G&F regs that even if you have written consent from a neighbor, they can rescind it at any time and don't have to tell you. I'm not a lawyer so from a layman's point of view and for discussion sake...
I looked into this law further and I find various problematic contradictions that could be an issue depending on who is interpreting it... here is my opinion on how I read it.
Looking at section 13-3107 (copied below), it seems to be the specific section of law that governs this situation under the title of Unlawful Discharge of Firearms... which is probably what you would be charged with...
Item B. indicates it is a class 6 felony, and will probably be charged as such, however Section 13-604 is specified as typically applying to this offense, which allows for a slightly less serious misdemeanor charge. However it is court discretionary and depending on circumstances/additional charges,prosecutor, it could be charged under 13-704 which is more serious and carries some hefty penalties.
13-3107, Item C (a) indicates the definition of "occupied structure" as... "(a) "Occupied structure" means any building in which, at the time of the firearm's discharge, a reasonable person from the location where a firearm is discharged would expect a person to be present."
This seems to also imply that if the shooter doesn't expect anyone to be there then he could conclude that this restriction is not applicable, based on his 'expectations'. However the arresting officer will likely be considered a "more reasonable" person.
Another consideration is referenced section 13-3101 (Definitions) which defines 'occupied Structure' as...
"6. “Occupied structure” means any building, object, vehicle, watercraft, aircraft or place with sides and a floor that is separately securable from any other structure attached to it, that is used for lodging, business, transportation, recreation or storage and in which one or more human beings either are or are likely to be present or so near as to be in equivalent danger at the time the discharge of a firearm occurs. Occupied structure includes any dwelling house, whether occupied, unoccupied or vacant."
This definition expands the scope and meaning of the term 'Occupied structure' considerably over what 13-3107 seems to say.
Another troubling item is 13-3107 C.8. "More than one mile from any occupied structure as defined in section 13-3101."
This seems to imply that the 1/4 mile rule mentioned in (C) 3 only applies if a city,town or county implemented such and if not then the state standard is 1 mile instead of 1/4 mile (except when hunting because Game & Fish adopted the 1/4 mile rule)???
So if you buy property outside a municipal boundary and the county has no shooting distance ordnance, then do you have to follow a state mandated 1 mile safe zone??
Since vehicles are included in the definitions, and they usually need a road, what if you are shooting within a mile of a road, even in the opposite direction (as in your property may have a dirt access road off a paved road but it is less than 1 mile from the road to the back of your property where you are shooting). ||--------[_________X}------>
Lets say your outside the 1 mile compliance zone and someone is camping in their tent or trailer over the next hill- is that an occupied structure that now requires 1/4 mile separation? Do we measure as the crow flies?
Section D.2(c) seems to allow you to build an underground range...
This is getting more complicated as I read further... this is why it is important to
1. keep liberals out of government and
2 support AZCDL as they get changes made to laws that can bite us....
======================================================
13-3107. Unlawful discharge of firearms; exceptions; classification; definitions
A. A person who with criminal negligence discharges a firearm within or into the limits of any municipality is guilty of a class 6 felony.
B. Notwithstanding the fact that the offense involves the discharge of a deadly weapon, unless a dangerous offense is alleged and proven pursuant to section 13-704, subsection L, section 13-604 applies to this offense.
C. This section does not apply if the firearm is discharged:
1. As allowed pursuant to chapter 4 of this title.
2. On a properly supervised range.
3. To lawfully take wildlife during an open season established by the Arizona game and fish commission and subject to the limitations prescribed by title 17 and Arizona game and fish commission rules and orders.
This paragraph does not prevent a city, town or county from adopting an ordinance or rule restricting the discharge of a firearm within one-fourth mile of an occupied structure without the consent of the owner or occupant of the structure.
For the purposes of this paragraph:
(a) "Occupied structure" means any building in which, at the time of the firearm's discharge, a reasonable person from the location where a firearm is discharged would expect a person to be present.
(b) "Take" has the same meaning prescribed in section 17-101.
4. For the control of nuisance wildlife by permit from the Arizona game and fish department or the United States fish and wildlife service.
5. By special permit of the chief of police of the municipality.
6. As required by an animal control officer in the performance of duties as specified in section 9-499.04.
7. Using blanks.
8. More than one mile from any occupied structure as defined in section 13-3101.
9. In self-defense or defense of another person against an animal attack if a reasonable person would believe that deadly physical force against the animal is immediately necessary and reasonable under the circumstances to protect oneself or the other person.
D. For the purposes of this section:
1. "Municipality" means any city or town and includes any property that is fully enclosed within the city or town.
2. "Properly supervised range" means a range that is any of the following:
(a) Operated by a club affiliated with the national rifle association of America, the amateur trapshooting association, the national skeet association or any other nationally recognized shooting organization, or by any public or private school.
(b) Approved by any agency of the federal government, this state or a county or city within which the range is located.
(c) Operated with adult supervision for shooting air or carbon dioxide gas operated guns, or for shooting in underground ranges on private or public property.
I am in Yavapai and over the years ownership has changed to a different younger/crowd. One of my my neighbors is a buddy who is retired MCSO. We have had several conversations regarding our shooting spots with local LE over the years and he generally uses the 1/4 mile rule if he is ever called....now things can change if damage or a clear safety issue(like with flying rounds). Thankfully all my neighbors are low key and we leave each other alone and respect/enjoy the freedoms we have on the ranch. Two areas on the ranch have ongoing land owner disagreements wanting/asking for more controls. My understanding is LE has asked that they resolve or file complaints with the courts...no one to my knowledge has been cited. Who knows where goes as more people populate the ranch. Things change and if they ever add attorneys into the mix I am sure we will all hate the results. At the moment its still good for me.
TheRifleman
Member
I'm not sure what the confusion is with the reading of the law. Hunting = 1/4 mile; Target shooting = 1 mile. Cities or towns can't make ordinances that supersede state law as was suggested earlier.
storage_man
Member
TheRifleman said:
Some people want to make it more complicated than it really is ! :?
I actually was never worried about the 20 acre pc, just wanted to have more space between us to keep the possible arseholes away from me, hell i live on an acre in the middle of phoenix, i enjoy the no bother me crap. I like my solitude, and the lack of a nieghbor attempting to adjust my thought or ideas.
I"m a gonna do, what I"m a gonna do. Bigger is better, in my opinion
Rj
I"m a gonna do, what I"m a gonna do. Bigger is better, in my opinion
Rj
Very interesting discussion. Thank you to all !
I have always followed the 1/4 and 1 mile understanding. If there is confusion on this subject I think AZCL and a couple of Legislative reps need to make it crystal clear to all so as new arrivals will not have arguments. As a side note, I have run into a number of various law enforcement personnel confused on the subject.
I have always followed the 1/4 and 1 mile understanding. If there is confusion on this subject I think AZCL and a couple of Legislative reps need to make it crystal clear to all so as new arrivals will not have arguments. As a side note, I have run into a number of various law enforcement personnel confused on the subject.
ducatilover
Member
Def sounds like 20 acres wont be enough. I guess I got to find a bigger lot. The info is interesting and good to know.
Great discussion, I have also been researching remote property for the primary purpose of shooting and I haven't found a lot of info.
After reading the thread I think that answers my distance vs. privacy of land selection.
Perhaps a multi-parcel group buy is in order. :think:
After reading the thread I think that answers my distance vs. privacy of land selection.
Perhaps a multi-parcel group buy is in order. :think:
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