selling the SBR you didn't know you owned

[YNOTAZ]

This is discussion generated by a for sale item, a Scorpion with an arm brace. I added a caution to the for sale item due to the new ATF rule. There was a response and I thought it better to continue the discussion here rather than crap in the for sale ad, so here is the beginning and how I would have replied there:

That's how I took the new ruling as well and based on the info I've reviewed he is safe to keep it as is for the grace period, but cannot sell or transfer in its current state. So I feel @YNOTAZ is looking out for fellow gun enthusiasts best interest here

Keep in mind, there is a caveat, the way ATF wrote the rule, they have laid a huge trap. The rule went in effect when published on 1/31/2023, so that scorpion is now an SBR. To make it legal the brace must be removed and there might still be an issue if he sold the brace to the same individual as buys the scorpion, especially if it is in the same transaction.

The 120 day "amnesty" is only for those who can demonstrate that they have submitted a form 1 during that period applying to make it an SBR, and they are instructed to leave the firearm as is with the brace attached, during the waiting period for approval.

If you go by the strictest interpretation of the new ATF rule, at 12:01am February 1, 2023 anyone with a brace of any sort on a firearm with less than a 16” barrel became a felon. OK, in their mind-numbing webinar, they say “make sure you are in possession of the firearm”. Now wait, you are now a federal felon and likely a state felon by being in possession of an unregistered SBR. They say you can take the brace off to make it legal, how do you do that if it is illegal for you to possess it, in order to take the brace off? Can I buy an M4 if I promise to swap the disconnector in the next 120 days?

Yeah, it's stupid but were talking ATF here, not MENSA candidates.

 

[Azgunlover69]

I believe in one of the Q and a videos I watched that was posted somewhere on the forum the guys discussing it said you cannot manufacture a pistol with brace after the 31st. It would have to remain in its current configuration when you file the form 1 and it has to be in your possession. To me I would think that means you have to leave the brace on file the form 1 And you get a 120 days to do the filing but you cannot purchase a firearm or add a brace now and then file the form 1.

 

[Rock Hardson]

Gunbroker is not allowing any pistol braced firearms, and are removing them from the auction pages

 

[campinginaz]

I met another member at a gun shop today. I saw they had AR9s without braces and I don't remember seeing any with braces (although I wasn't really looking hard). Hopefully everything gets overturned etc.

 

[YNOTAZ]

I believe in one of the Q and a videos I watched that was posted somewhere on the forum the guys discussing it said you cannot manufacture a pistol with brace after the 31st. It would have to remain in its current configuration when you file the form 1 and it has to be in your possession. To me I would think that means you have to leave the brace on file the form 1 And you get a 120 days to do the filing but you cannot purchase a firearm or add a brace now and then file the form 1.

Somewhat true. The way the ATF wrote it and explained it in their Q&A, your Filed Form 1 is your temporary authorization for the braced pistol which is now an SBR. If you don't file the form 1 because you say "screw them" or I'll wait for courts" you better take the brace off. One of the first things they said is get possession of the firearm. That is a rule for NFA items, you must be in control of it at all times you can't Just loan it to someone for a range day like you could with a braced pistol.

THEY DID NOT GIVE AMNESTY FOR 120 DAYS, only deferred collection on the $200 tax for 120 day for this specific set of circumstances. The only thing that looks different, like an amnesty is once you file a form 1 your filed form is you "stamp" until processed.

Someone asked what about the Mossberg shockwave with a brace, they had not addressed SBSs and are "looking into that".

They have no idea what they are doing.

 

[admin]

This is discussion generated by a for sale item, a Scorpion with an arm brace. I added a caution to the for sale item due to the new ATF rule. There was a response and I thought it better to continue the discussion here rather than crap in the for sale ad, so here is the beginning and how I would have replied there:

That's how I took the new ruling as well and based on the info I've reviewed he is safe to keep it as is for the grace period, but cannot sell or transfer in its current state. So I feel @YNOTAZ is looking out for fellow gun enthusiasts best interest here

Keep in mind, there is a caveat, the way ATF wrote the rule, they have laid a huge trap. The rule went in effect when published on 1/31/2023, so that scorpion is now an SBR. To make it legal the brace must be removed and there might still be an issue if he sold the brace to the same individual as buys the scorpion, especially if it is in the same transaction.

The 120 day "amnesty" is only for those who can demonstrate that they have submitted a form 1 during that period applying to make it an SBR, and they are instructed to leave the firearm as is with the brace attached, during the waiting period for approval.

If you go by the strictest interpretation of the new ATF rule, at 12:01am February 1, 2023 anyone with a brace of any sort on a firearm with less than a 16” barrel became a felon. OK, in their mind-numbing webinar, they say “make sure you are in possession of the firearm”. Now wait, you are now a federal felon and likely a state felon by being in possession of an unregistered SBR. They say you can take the brace off to make it legal, how do you do that if it is illegal for you to possess it, in order to take the brace off? Can I buy an M4 if I promise to swap the disconnector in the next 120 days?

Yeah, it's stupid but were talking ATF here, not MENSA candidates.

Good discussion.

For a point of clarification, no one is a felon unless they are charged with a felony and convicted of one. Possessing a pistol with an attached brace, or an unregistered SBR doesn't automatically make you a felon.

I'm also pretty sure that the ATF has said that if you remove the brace to make your pistol legal again, as long as you have another firearm that you could legally attach the brace to, it's not a problem. It IS a potential problem if the only firearm you can attach the brace to is the one you just removed it from - and like you pointed out, it IS a problem if you sell them to the same person, together.

 

[xerts1191]

The sooner the courts get involved in this the better, even the ATF knows this bogus

 

[Tenring]

"THEY DID NOT GIVE AMNESTY FOR 120 DAYS, only deferred collection on the $200 tax for 120 day for this specific set of circumstances. The only thing that looks different, like an amnesty is once you file a form 1 your filed form is you "stamp" until processed. "

Thank you for bringing this up, imagine the guy bringing his braced pistol to the range and being ask for his paperwork on the SBR he has, all the time he was thinking there was an amnesty period.

Agreed - they have laid a huge trap.

 

[mock0013]

B&T has already gotten clarification that their pistols could be registered as SBR's now without 922R compliance otherwise they would have had to have been destroyed based on the law. but also the brace can be removed and not require the registration to be a SBR. This was B&T specifically

 

[YNOTAZ]

For a point of clarification, no one is a felon unless they are charged with a felony and convicted of one. Possessing a pistol with an attached brace, or an unregistered SBR doesn't automatically make you a felon.

Good point, and correct.

Now you started me pondering, with the way DOJ treated J6 arrestees, would they charge you with being in the possession of a firearm during the commission of a crime, just to make sure you understand the gravity of your offense.

 

[thom]

Following because I would like help filling out the ATF form 1. I don't want to make any mistakes.

 

[cool arrow]

there are a slew of folks here that know the ins-and-outs pretty well.

I would reach out to delta6 for advice first, if it were me.

 

[Azgunlover69]

I have a meeting with my class 3 dealer on Wednesday to pick up a few guns and to discuss the form 1 under the new rule. If I learn any new info I'll report back.

 

[glock holiday]

Following

 

[BigNate]

Following

 

[XJThrottle]

The eform F1 isn't difficult.

Enter your info. Some of it is even choices from a drop down menu. When they send you the email with the cover letter return it with a photo and print card. On a few occasions I received this within a couple hours of submitting it. If for some reason you screw up a section they will contact you via email for verification. It's not automatically denied.

 

[Winmagbill]

There is decent thread on Form 1s and getting a stamp from January. With a brace Form 1 you no longer need a photo or the engraving.

https://www.arizonashooting.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=28&t=15218&p=119884&hilit=Fingerprint+card#p119884

Pardon me for a little rant:
Just more “proof” of ATF wishy washy rule making. Why have we needed photos and engraving, but not now, what’s different? Nothing is different. Now they have created 2 types of SBRs. If I was a betting man I’d give 3 years and they’ll come out with “need a photo and engraving” mandate. Don’t see any chance they will drop the requirement on new Standard SBRs and people being people will complain and whine about it. So the ATF will say fine everyone needs to come into compliance.

 

[Tenring]

If they are successful and this "Rule" stands, I believe there will be many changes to it (as the wind blows) and further "rules" to their end game of total disarmament and control.

 

[h8pvmnt]

Did You guys know you can click the little wrench at the top of the tread and choose subscribe without posting "following" Just an FYI about the site functionality. Posting "following accomplishes the same thing so to each his own. But now i have subscribed and also posted... Double following.

 

[cool arrow]

But now i have subscribed and also posted... Double following.

ditto double secret following... :lol: