SBR Qs

[XJThrottle]

So, I'm new to NFA stuff, and am interested in putting together an SBR. How is this regulated with the lower being serialized, but the upper is the part that it would apply to?

Can you "blindly" apply for a stamp for one? Like if you go to the SilencerShop web site you can pay the stamp fee. But, would you then have to have it sent to an FFL with the appropriate paper to transfer it to you?

Confused.... :think:

 

[hardmack]

Lots of stuff to go through, the upper means nothing to the ATF per se. Its barrel length of course is important when its attached to the Lower Receiver (the actual "firearm") so dont think the upper is serialized or something when you get an SBR.

There are lots of threads about SBR's but you can buy a "pistol" AR from your local dealer and then Form1 it (ie create your own, "blind" like mentioned) or you can goto an NFA dealer and buy a factory sbr and have them sit on it for a year while your paperwork goes through.

If you buy from SilencerShop, it has to transfer from their inventory to the NFA dealer you select and then you transfer it to yourself (add 9-13 months for paperwork of course). SS has quite the experience and can walk you through everything you need to do if you go that route.

 

[YNOTAZ]

If you buy an SBR there is a transfer on a Form 4 from an FFL to you. If you do it like I think you are indicating, then you are the manufacturer and you do it on a Form 1. To be totally legal don’t buy an upper with a barrel less than 16” if you have an AR or an AR receiver. That is considered constructive intent in that you have 2 parts that make an SBR and all it takes is 2 pins with no tools to put the parts together.

If you already own an AR pistol receiver that eliminates the problem since any short barreled upper you own is obviously for the legal use of mounting on the AR pistol.

To build your own:
Buy a receiver or take one you own.
Submit a form 1 for that receiver
When it’s approved in about 8-9 months
Have the receiver engraved with your manufacturers name and city/state trust or personal name
Buy your upper and go have fun.

PS. If you get someone that says screw the engraving stuff, listen to them at your own peril. The Fed guys like BLM and Forest Service are told to look for engraving on a firearm if they think it is not a standard firearm. The reason, you can say you forgot your tax stamp, or your dog ate it but you can’t say your engraving fell off. You probably can prove you’re OK but it will be later after your firearm was seized and you paid the attorney’s fees.

 

[XJThrottle]

Thanks for the replies.

I guess the answer I was looking for was to fill out the Form 1, since I do intend on building it myself. I have built a few ARs, and have a pile of receivers. So, I guess in the short term, while waiting on the stamp period, I should put together a pistol lower to ultimately be "legal" with a short barreled upper around.

 

[Super Trucker]

Thanks for the replies.

I guess the answer I was looking for was to fill out the Form 1, since I do intend on building it myself. I have built a few ARs, and have a pile of receivers. So, I guess in the short term, while waiting on the stamp period, I should put together a pistol lower to ultimately be "legal" with a short barreled upper around.

In my opinion the best way to "do it yourself" is build a pistol AR to avoid the constructive intent argument, fill out a form 1 which will ask all the info of the lower, total length of the SBR (I guessed the length) and a few other questions. I used the internet to learn how to fill out the forms and they went through with no issues.
During the wait, get your engraving done, I paid a local guy $35.00 for mine.
Once you receive the stamp, swap the pistol buffer for a stock and you're good to go.

If you are using a trust for the stamps have a local/in state attorney do the trust for you, the "one size fits all" trusts might give you headache at a later date as they may not have every "local law" included in them.

 

[YNOTAZ]

Thanks for the replies.

I guess the answer I was looking for was to fill out the Form 1, since I do intend on building it myself. I have built a few ARs, and have a pile of receivers. So, I guess in the short term, while waiting on the stamp period, I should put together a pistol lower to ultimately be "legal" with a short barreled upper around.

Yep, one pistol lower protects against "constructive intent" so you can order any uppers you want, build them, mount optics, put them on the pistol lower and sight them in etc. Do your Fomr 1 on the receiver you intend to SBR then sit back and wait.

F Y I "constructive intent" is a very rare charge. It is typically only used when a federal agency wants to get you for something else and can't make that case but they discover your non-NFA AR rifle receivers and a short barreled upper.

 

[Tim McBride]

Can anyone even find a case cite for "constructive intent"? I've been working in the NFA world for a long time and have only ever found he said/she said stuff on this.
The fact is a short AR upper next to a title I lower receiver with a stock is NOT an SBR and only becomes one when they are assembled.

As to the OP, build it as a pistol with a brace and shoot it, I think you'll find that a braced pistol is just as good or better than an SBR.

 

[XJThrottle]

My intent is to do a suppressed SBR. Suppressor is already on the way. The only thing I'm missing is the upper and it's stamp.

The constructive intent must be somewhat of a myth, as you can buy the Glock carbine stocks OTC too. They have them behind the counter at C2. My co-worker walked in with one the other day, and I asked him how he planned on being able to use it without a stamp. LOL.

 

[YNOTAZ]

Can anyone even find a case cite for "constructive intent"?

Yes, and thanks.

You forced me to scrape some rust off my memory and do some research. It was not citred as “constructive intent” but that was the meaning the BATFE applied in Thompson/Center Arms Company v. U.S., 112 S.Ct. 2102,

The bad news is that the ATF pushed possession as the intent to make an SBR, the good news, and also news to me now that I dug deeper, is that they pushed it up to SCOTUS and SCOTUS decided that the actions described by “constructive intent” which is having all of the parts but not having put them together DOES NOT APPLY TO SBRs.

Thompson argued that possession of unassembled parts was explicitly criminalized in the sections of the NFA concerning machineguns and destructive devices, but not in the section concerning short barreled rifles, Congress must have intended that the definition of a short-barreled rifle not apply to the possession of unassembled parts.

The Supreme Court conceded that the statute was ambiguous, and chose under the rule of lenity to decide the case in Thompson/Center’s favor.

I learned something new, so back to the OP's question, don't bother wasting your time and money on AR pistols and braces, just order your upper and submit your paperwork.

 

[Mr_Maim]

Can anyone even find a case cite for "constructive intent"?

Yes, and thanks.

You forced me to scrape some rust off my memory and do some research. It was not citred as “constructive intent” but that was the meaning the BATFE applied in Thompson/Center Arms Company v. U.S., 112 S.Ct. 2102,

The bad news is that the ATF pushed possession as the intent to make an SBR, the good news, and also news to me now that I dug deeper, is that they pushed it up to SCOTUS and SCOTUS decided that the actions described by “constructive intent” which is having all of the parts but not having put them together DOES NOT APPLY TO SBRs.

Thompson argued that possession of unassembled parts was explicitly criminalized in the sections of the NFA concerning machineguns and destructive devices, but not in the section concerning short barreled rifles, Congress must have intended that the definition of a short-barreled rifle not apply to the possession of unassembled parts.

The Supreme Court conceded that the statute was ambiguous, and chose under the rule of lenity to decide the case in Thompson/Center’s favor.

I learned something new, so back to the OP's question, don't bother wasting your time and money on AR pistols and braces, just order your upper and submit your paperwork.

Excellent post.

The text of the SCOTUS is here for those interested in reading it:

https://www.courtlistener.com/opinion/112745/united-states-v-thompsoncenter-arms-co/

 

[Muzap]

The term you're looking for is actually "constructive possession." And it's a real thing. Individuals have been arrested and prosecuted for it. Just google the term and you'll find references.

 

[YNOTAZ]

The Thompson case eliminates that for SBRs. Old convictions could easily be overturned based on the later SCOTUS ruling. In any case they did not use the "constructive" term in the case but the possession of the parts that could easily be assembled as an SBR was the part that was overruled.

 

[Muzap]

The Thompson case eliminated that for SBRs only if the possessor has a possible legal configuration for the firearm. It's important to note that the Contender kit in question contained all the parts necessary for assembly both into a pistol, and into a non-NFA rifle configuration. It had a possible legal configuration for the firearm, and a warning on the box not to assemble it into an NFA configuration.

So, by this precedent, if you have even one pistol lower, registered SBR, or even a stripped lower that transferred to you as a "other" on the 4473, you can have any length upper you want, as there's a possible legal configuration.

If, however, you only have ARs that are non-NFA rifles, and you possess an upper that's under 16" barrel length, the Thompson ruling will not protect you, as you possess no possible legal upper/lower combination for that upper.

While I agree that the possibility of being prosecuted for such a thing is incredibly low, and that if such a charge were brought you're probably already in deep weeds over something else, I would also suggest it's not wise to think that Thompson alone allows you to have whatever length barrel you want under any circumstances.

 

[psyop_overlord]

Many of the shops in the valley can fill out all the paperwork for you for a small fee. Did this with Merchant arms in Tukee.

 

[YNOTAZ]

The Thompson case eliminated that for SBRs only if the possessor has a possible legal configuration for the firearm. It's important to note that the Contender kit in question contained all the parts necessary for assembly both into a pistol, and into a non-NFA rifle configuration. It had a possible legal configuration for the firearm, and a warning on the box not to assemble it into an NFA configuration.

Since they are talking "kits" it appears that you need the capability to assemble a pistol which would entail having a pistol buffer tube. Then you have the equivalent of a "kit" that can be assembled as a legal pistol or a rifle with a 16" upper a legal upper. The same warning, not to assemble it as an NFA item, still applies.


Good point about the kit content and reiterating the warning.

 

[Ranger1]

Ok this goes to the OP.
1. Why do you want a SBR?
2. Why do you not want a pistol with a
brace?
Just asking before I give you my opinion.

 

[XJThrottle]

Simple answer, I think AR pistols are lame. Especially with a "brace" you can shoulder. The AR buffer tube kills it for me

AK pistol, or AK with a folder, is a different story. .

At any rate, I have already started the SBR process. Stamps for the gun, and suppressor, are "checks cashed", so it's a waiting game now.

 

[Ranger1]

The reason I ask is the the shockwave blades are real good and if you want to travel outside the state before you leave you need to send a letter to the ATFE and tell them when,where,how,and what time you will be back with it. Not to mention the states you might travel through that might not approve of your SBR. A pistol with a brace is just a pistol

 

[XJThrottle]

I have pistols for pistol stuff. I'll leave the SBR at home if need be. In the short term I only really see myself going from AZ to Oklahoma. All states on that drive allow SBR and suppressor.

Aside from being fun, HD was a driving factor in building it.

 

[Desert Rat]

Thanks for the info as well. That will probably be one of my next builds. I will need to save this thread!!