Replaceing Gypsum board

[Harrier]

I see that most safe makers use common sheetrock (gypsum board) for their main fireproofing. Some use a slightly better grade called 'type X', but it isn't much better than the regular. What they don't tell you is that the UL rating they cite is pretty much worthless as it is given to a tested SYSTEM and not to just the sheetrock.

I know there is a certain amount or moisture in the gypsum that is purported to release steam during a fire, thus they claim it cools the inside of the safe for a while. Once the water is released, the gypsum collapses in a pile of powder and any fire protection you had collapses with it.

True safes use a concrete filler instead of sheetrock. This is a better filler in many ways.
Stretching things like a manufacturer might...
Typical 1/2" sheetrock can be construed to have a 1/2hr fire rating.
Typical 1/2" cement board has up to 2 hr fire rating. (DuRock or Hardee board or other brand... or even some other sheet o thing)

My question is... What if I replaced the sheetrock with Cement board ...
o- Would I proportionately improve the fire handling capability of my safe?
o- Would there be any water vapor/steam issue by doing so?

Has anyone done this? Any other info to consider?

 

[Ballistic Therapy]

I have never heard of sheetrock giving off moisture.
There is no moisture in sheetrock unless there has been a water leak.
I have built lots of fire walls and chimney chases over the years and 5/8 sheetrock has always been called out as the fireproofing. The more layers the better the fireproofing is.
Typically one layer of 5/8 for fire walls and two layers for chimney chases.
Some higher heat chases were up to four layers depending what the chase contained.
The older safes use fire brick for fire proofing.
Cement board does not have the density of fire brick.

 

[Harrier]

Thanks for the info BT,
I've been researching another safe and have run across the gypsum 'steam' a few time- sorry I don't have a link handy but maybe it can be found on this site... https://gunsafereviewsguy.com/
I don't think it's moisture like we may normally think of as wetness, but rather inherent in the molecular material as a certain % of it's normal composition, that under heat is released.

Total safe thickness is probably the reason sheetrock is used. Some use 1/2" others 5/8" and the number of layers varies from 1 to 4 with the rating.

As I mentioned, the true safes- those with real UL tested fire ratings, use a poured concrete mix. So I'm thinking of replacing the 1/2" gypsum board with 1/2" cement board to try and double the fire resistance.

If that works then I can buy a cheaper safe and upgrade it myself for a lot less. I don't know that cement board has the same inherent moisture and might react differently under high heat... otherwise why haven't OEMs substituted it for sheetrock to get a higher fire rating?

 

[Ballistic Therapy]

Cement board and poured concrete are not the same.
Cement board has lots of voids in it.
When concrete is used as fireproofing it is vibrated to get all the voids ( air bubbles ) out of it.
It is much higher density than cement board or hardy board.

The construction of the safe has a lot to do with how good the fireproofing is.
A sheet metal safe is not going to be near as good as a safe made out of thick welded steel.

Personally I would buy a good steel welded safe and line it with 5/8 sheetrock is it isn't already fire proof.

As far as the moisture , I would think the humidity of the air is where the moisture would come from , not the drywall.

 

[Harrier]

hmm... I always thought "Hardy board" was just another brand of cement board, didn't know the mix composition was different

The presence of air bubbles would certainly make a difference- in strength also. So far, I can't say if I noticed that issue in the ones I have sawn into pieces. I'll have to check that out as I'm trying to understand how a manufacturer could get consistency and certification if they can't control their mix slump.

I would love to buy a TL-30 or even a $5000 Ft.Knox gun safe and just roll it into my location, but one problems I have with getting a secure box like that is cost. so I'm looking into if I can beef up a less expensive box with a cheaper solution.

 

[needsmostuff]

I am following this as I could use some upgrade . I have a couple of "big box " safes and even some unlined lock box types that anything would be an upgrade.

 

[Tenring]

When I bought my safe I called the fire department and got some pointers from the Fire Chief on safe fire rating. Trying to compare all the different test RATINGS they use to market these things was like trying to educate myself on the science of metallurgy.

If I was to upgrade the rating myself, I would line it with as many layers of type x as I could fit, but the key is the seams/edges. For that I would use 3M puddy rated products that expand and seal. In a fire anywhere the air can travel will compromise the safe.

 

[Tenring]

Burn through is one thing, how hot will the safes interior temperature get even without burning through is another thought.

 

[Racewin]

What about insulating it on the outside? Maybe build something around it out of a couple layers of sheetrock? Or perhaps cover it in ceramic blanket?

 

[Harrier]

What about insulating it on the outside? Maybe build something around it out of a couple layers of sheetrock? Or perhaps cover it in ceramic blanket?

That is one strategy that may be viable depending on the location.
Enclosing all four sides could be an issue as the door would have to be accessible but perhaps a wood cabinet could be built like the old TV centers or armoire - those can be had at goodwill for for around $100 and modified as needed.
Modifying an interior is a major hassle as shelves and the barrel rack would have to be modified in every dimension. Adding FB to a steel cabinet would probably be easier.

 

[knockonit]

the heat is gonna fry whats in safe unless a fast burn over, but typically where one puts the darn thing is the key, if so worried, put it in a fire room, build one outta non combustable material, heat is still the ugly one, never understood why anyone keeps ammo in a safe either, best kept in different cabinet, jmo though, although i do have a mag or two for the quick grabs in the a couple of the safes.
as noted, if worried about fire, build a fire proof room stash safe, ammo and what ever you need to fire proof, pretty simple, steel studs, type X drywall, layered and joint patterned, taped, fire/heat proof insulation inbetween studs, and cieling. fire door, fire caulk it, seal it up, assuming concrete floor. Or do CMU (concrete block), poured lid, weak spot is always the door. but can be over come with the right $$$ purchase of fire rated door, or doors.

I've build a lot of vaults over the years, not difficult, pricey, and as noted door is always the weak spot, unless using a vault style door, one came up for sale on either craigslist or offer up a while back, a personal banker or jeweler was moving and dismantling his vault, they can be bought how much dinero you got
Rj

 

[Ballistic Therapy]

Basically , if you dump enough money on it , no problem can go unsolved.
Construction 101.

 

[A_C Guy]

What about insulating it on the outside? Maybe build something around it out of a couple layers of sheetrock? Or perhaps cover it in ceramic blanket?

Rock wool insulation is not too heavy and doesn't degrade over time. It would be a good choice for either a blanket, or build an enclave for the safe and fill the area between the safe and the walls with it, or remove the interior of the safe and fill the interior between the outer steel shell and the inner liners.

 

[zonie77]

If you look at concrete backer board or hardee board it seems to have Styrofoam pellets mixed into it. That's probably great for it's intended purpose but may not be good for fire/heat resistance.

 

[Harrier]

Thanks for pointing that out...
IIRC, most "light-weight" concrete mixes use pearlite or styrafoam beads entrained in the mix. Somewhat like gypsum board, during a fire, they will release any moisture contained in their molecular structure as steam (not as much though). As I understand it the fire protection layer doesn't then collapse into powder like gypsum does, because the concrete still holds everything together.
So far it seems to me that concrete based hardie board would be a good choice to replace/augment standard gypsum board in a safe... the +/- list I have come up with...

advantages:
o- increases fire resistance 2x that of the same thickness of sheetrock
o- sheets would hold form & resistance instead of a pile of dust on the floor.
o- can easily buy, transport and work with at home
o- no welding required
o- can be cut to fit inside or outside

disadvantages
o- costs more than sheetrock
o- power cutting tools required
o- lots of silica dust produced- mask/extensive cleanup required
o- oddball size (3'x5') produces more waste

Any more??
I think this would make a great alternative but also wonder why no safe manufacturer offers it, even as an upgrade- there must be something I'm overlooking.

 

[Gatsby]

We worked with this a lot, using it in (at least) a couple hundred bathrooms. We did not use any power tools to cut it. We had carbide scoring tools, but I believe they also sell carbide blades for utility knives that could work. If you don't need to be super precise, I would score and snap like you would drywall. It breaks a lot harder, and I'm making it sound simpler than it is, but I wouldn't put all that silica dust in the air if I could avoid it. We once scored and snapped with regular utility knife blades out of desperation (just made several passes). With sheetrock you can give it a snap to break it and then cut the paper on the other side, but that won't work for backer board. We used whatever was handy to lift both ends of the score a couple/few inches off the ground and snapped from both ends simultaneously.

It worked for us and just wanted to share my experience. Maybe RJ has had different luck or used different tactics, but this was how we did it.

 

[338lapua]

What about insulating it on the outside? Maybe build something around it out of a couple layers of sheetrock? Or perhaps cover it in ceramic blanket?

And build a door that closes around the safe door will buy you time as well. You can take it apart quickly if you decide to move.