Order of Sizing and trimming?

[Harrier]

I've recently changed the order that I decap, size & trim cases to decap, trim then size.
I'm wondering of anyone sees anything wrong with this... here's why I changed after decades of doing it the first way..

My current procedure is to use a Lee collet decapping die in a Dillon to quickly decap a batch of 223 brass. That is all the Dillon does in this sequence. This works well as it rounds the necks if deformed and reduces them slightly to about .252" from full chamber diameter. The decapping rod doesn't expand or stretch the necks and the body is left pretty much untouched unless out of round.

Next I run them thru a RCBS FL sizing bushing die with .243" neck bushing to size the necks down. The decapping rod has the expander button and pin removed, so as not to expand the neck any on the upstroke- the busing sizes the neck to .243" and it stays there until loaded. This provides about .002" of neck tension to hold the bullet depending on neck wall thickness. I don't ream or turn necks.

After that I trim the cases to 1.750" and then run them thru the RCBS prep station to chamfer and debur the necks and ream primer pockets.

For loading I use a Forster Micrometer Competition Seating die to seat the bullets. Then frequently I would run the loads thru a Lee Factory Crimp Die if they were going to be shot in an AR to avoid recoil setback.

I've gotten tired of the die change and time to run them thru the second time, so I got a .242" bushing, figuring the extra neck tension will allow me to skip the FCD step.

A problem showed up when going from the sizer to the trimmer- the trimmer pilot is too large to easily fit in the neck, so sizing first hinders trim ops. I don't want to reduce the pilot dia.

Under the current setup, if I trim first then resize, the cases end up about .004 longer (1.754"-still within spec) after sizing... so I set my trimmer down by that much, to trim to 1.746" and when they get sized afterward they come out about about 1.750" (+- .001)and the neck is down to .242" OD.
the only problem I see is that some cases don't stretch that much and I will end up with some shorter than 1.748"

I think this will work fine and eliminate the crimp step.
Any comments?

 

[storage_man]

I don't see why this won't work, other than having some shorter cases. The only reason I size before trimming, is because I do use a FCD and if the cartridge lengths vary much, the FCD becomes ineffective.

 

[shooter444]

If your case processing sequence works for you, with what shows up on target, how can it be wrong?

Over the years I tried different orders of case processing as well. But, after getting into stainless steel wet tumbling many years ago, my world changed. Having my cases/primer pockets so clean from wet tumbling, allows me to use less sizing lube and qualify and discard lose primer pocket cases. So, I tumble as my first first without exception .

I am a bit OCD so, trimming after sizing is the only processing sequence order I can live with. I know cases change length after sizing, so, my OCD demands I trim after sizing. Trimming before sizing may not produce much of a different finished trim case length, but I just like things as precise as I can get them. I feel there are so many little things in reloading that can become compound multipliers, I try to keep them at minimum when possible. But, trimming an entire batch of caliber specific cases is usually only a once a year, or less, affair for me.

As to "neck sizing" other than what my sizing die produces, it is above my pay grade and something I feel is more for the extreme bench shooter to go nuts about. The Lee factory crimp die has served me well, for
what I want produced on target, so, if it ain't broke, I can live with it.

 

[Harrier]

... Having my cases/primer pockets so clean from wet tumbling, allows me to use less sizing lube and qualify and discard lose primer pocket cases. So, I tumble as my first first without exception .

... I know cases change length after sizing, ...
...As to "neck sizing" other than what my sizing die produces...
... The Lee factory crimp die has served me well...

How does that work? Wouldn't you decap first so the pins could clean the pocket? Not bustin your chops (much) as I think I know what you mean.... I would like to try pin tumbling but the cost of the size tumbler I want is above my pay grade.

Short cases and the variable case-length after sizing is the only real issue I can see at the moment. I would have the short neck problem anyway. Depending on how many of a particular headstamp I have, i will sort out the short necks into their own group (they will eventually grow longer) and testing has not shown any problem with short necks. I mark them with brass-black and reserve them for short bullets.



Without an expanding button, neck stretch is kept to a minimum, .001 to .003 at most so most of my bushing sized cases come out 1.749 to 1.751 or 1.752 at most. This fine AFAIC. I found leaving the button on stretched cases way too much and re-enlarged the neck by different amounts depending on the thickness of the brass- defeating the purpose of the bushing and requiring neck turning if you wanted to maintain consistency- not a saddle for this horse....

I agree the Lee FCD is a great piece of kit, but since my test loads are done with a hand press, it just adds to the workload. I increased the tension to avoid potential recoil setback in the magazine when firing from an AR, plus I always wonder if the crimp affects group potential.

 

[Flash]

Harrier,

I've been doing what you're doing for around 10 years or so with .223 brass for similar reasons. Works like a charm.

I'm also a big fan of the Lee FCD for all handgun rounds I reload and .223.

 

[shooter444]

Yes, Harrier, you are correct, one must remove primers to have the pockets cleaned out during tumbling.

 

[Flash]

Thought I'd respond to the primer pockets being cleaned. I tumble with the primers in, then use a Sinclair uniformer to clean the pockets on my precision rifles later.

I don't clean the pockets on .223 at all. Don't do it with handgun either.

 

[shooter444]

I Hey Flash, I never got primer pockets clean enough, IMO, until I started using the SS wet tumbler. Doing it this way just saves me another step to get them clean. After changing over to this system I found some pockets very loose when priming. I then realized that crud had been making it seem like the pocket was the proper diameter. I am not talking about a whole bunch of them being loose, maybe one or two in a couple hundred being relegated to the brass jug. I much prefer knowing a pocket is too loose, before I fire it than have the possibility of a primer blowing out and jamming my action. Of course, I load every cartridge individually on multiple single stage presses. I can see how a progressive press would not be advantageous, to this precaution.

 

[Flash]

Well, I've never had a primer blow out of a pocket or fall out or anything like that and I've shot some handgun brass long enough that you can't read the headstamp any more.

With rifle, the mouth will split long before I have any problems with the primer pockets, or at least that's the way it's been for all these years.

Wet cleaning just isn't worth the trouble to me and undoubtedly never will be, but I know some like it.

I load all handgun, shotgun and .223 on an automatic progressive press and precision rifle on a Rockchucker.

 

[Harrier]

I try to check primer pockets before every loading...
I would like to do it before the rest of the processing, as it would save a little time and effort.
That is one thing pin cleaning would provide, as now I have to wait until I get to the pocket cleaning stage, which is the last one before loading... I use the cleaned pocket as a marker that the rest of the prep has been done- otherwise I might skip it.

I find that most FC brass has a LOT of loose pockets. Others, a few here or there. I've never kept count as to how many loads I get out of a case but for 223 it probably isn't more than 8 if I had to guess. I tend to load those up to 5.56 pressure. Handgun, like you said the headstamp get worn off.

I use a .1475-" zz pin-gage after cleaning on the prep station, if the pin goes in/out easy I discard the case, if it's sticky to come out I mark 1/2 the head w/red sharpie and then use a CCI or S&B primer (as they seem to be slightly tighter fit than win or federal). I started doing that after having a couple blown primers that I couldn't tell if it was a loose pocket or the load. Now I set those cases aside for lower pressure loads and sometimes I will use primer sealer as extra measure. Haven't had one of those pop yet.

 

[shooter444]

Yup, Federal 223 cases are the culprits, especially my older ones.

 

[Desert Rat]

Interesting, I am relatively new to reloading and was taught to size first and then trim since there are potentially small adjustments to the length. I never even thought about doing it the other way around.
I suppose any stretching that it might do would be extremely minor. I don't always see much brass get trimmed.
I don't load things very hot either.

 

[Harrier]

Trimming after sizing is the normal way. My situation is different and requires me to do something different.

So far I'm seeing about .003" max stretch- most of the time it's .002" so i just set my trimmer back .002 and everything appears fine. I tens to to do a lot of testing trying to find accurate loads for various guns so i do a fair amount of hot loads. But I also trim every time. After a few times stretch becomes minimal in most cases.

 

[shooter444]

Interesting, I am relatively new to reloading and was taught to size first and then trim since there are potentially small adjustments to the length. I never even thought about doing it the other way around.
I suppose any stretching that it might do would be extremely minor. I don't always see much brass get trimmed.
I don't load things very hot either.

Hey Desert Rat, just a friendly fyi.

I use a Wilson Case Gage when I trim brass. I trim to the case gage minimum length level and only measure them after a couple dozen firings to see if they have stretched to the maximum level. When they stretch to max level on the gage, I trim again to minimum. As stated, I usually only trim once a year, but the Wilson Case Gage sure makes the task precise, quick and easy for me.