https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=68SHAPfBIPI
Mariiiiiiine training, SIR!
- Thread starter smithers599
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R these new recruits??
WRMorrison
Member
"You may commence fire when your target appears; targets.....up!" LOL Sounds like someone spent too much time in the butts and forget they were on the boat.
-WRM
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AZ Husker
Member
I can pee that far.
And more accurately.AZ Husker said:
Listen, these guys just do what they're told. As far as they know, they are now "qualified" with pistols.
I'm not picking on them. I am pointing out the fallacy of the common assumption that only former military people should be allowed to carry guns in churches, etc., because they received pistol training in the military. Or, former military people are exempt from the training requirements for CCW, because of their extensive military training. Military pistol training is woefully deficient. They are shown how to hold the gun and shown how to load the gun. Then they shoot a few rounds at a close target with long time limits, with extremely generous scoring, and they are deemed to be "qualified." After that, they may not ever shoot a pistol again, or perhaps they will repeat the "qualification" every three years or so.
A recent example of the "military people know more about guns than mere mortals":
http://www.jewishworldreview.com/0819/epstein081419.php3
http://www.jewishworldreview.com/0819/epstein081419.php3
God forbid a schoolteacher, bricklayer, or accountant should carry a pistol, because they couldn't possibly have all the training in carrying concealed and drawing from concealment, and the laws of justification in self-defense, that a military person does.
I am not going to make any gun political assessments but .. I did notice a few things I found interesting.
The grip I saw when they zoomed in was a little different. I wonder if the shooters they focused on were very new and not getting it or is that what they teach. It looked almost like a modified tea cup and the shooters support thumb was either in or under the trigger guard.
I also noticed at least one individual, when they were shooting at about 15-20 yds, manually putting the gun in single action. I am very surprised that is allowed in training.
The distances seem perfect for troops .. I cant imagine a hand gun being used in anything but room clearing and extremely short distance if you are equipped with a rifle and practice at 15/20 yds and 5 yds is about right.
Judging by what i saw .. these are raw recruits. Some aren't quite sure where their fingers should go and you can see them fumble. I will believe that if they are infantry marines they will get real training later.
Everyone starts somewhere.
The grip I saw when they zoomed in was a little different. I wonder if the shooters they focused on were very new and not getting it or is that what they teach. It looked almost like a modified tea cup and the shooters support thumb was either in or under the trigger guard.
I also noticed at least one individual, when they were shooting at about 15-20 yds, manually putting the gun in single action. I am very surprised that is allowed in training.
The distances seem perfect for troops .. I cant imagine a hand gun being used in anything but room clearing and extremely short distance if you are equipped with a rifle and practice at 15/20 yds and 5 yds is about right.
Judging by what i saw .. these are raw recruits. Some aren't quite sure where their fingers should go and you can see them fumble. I will believe that if they are infantry marines they will get real training later.
Everyone starts somewhere.
^^^
Manually cocking is indeed doctrine for "long" shots, because fewer recruits can make even the minimum qualifying score if they shoot DA at the longer range. However, if you are going to manually cock a pistol (or revolver), the correct way is to use the support hand thumb. It allows you to maintain a firing grip on the gun with your strong hand. It is not unheard of for people to drop or fumble guns when they are trying to thumbcock strong-handed in a hurry. It also keeps the trigger finger away from the trigger guard. Try it slow motion with an unloaded gun, and you will see that the trigger finger gets a bit close to the trigger guard -- bad thing in a hurry.
Many Marines (and soldiers, sailors, and airmen) get more and better training, but most just get this level of "familiarity" training, so they can check the box on their records. "Yep, fired a pistol once." My concern is with the common assumption that "military = competent with pistol." In a church or shopping mall, when somebody yells "Allah Akhbar" and starts shooting, who do I want to be there with a pistol? Alex Boriqua, or one of those physically fit young men seen in the video? I'll take the civilian hobbyist.
Manually cocking is indeed doctrine for "long" shots, because fewer recruits can make even the minimum qualifying score if they shoot DA at the longer range. However, if you are going to manually cock a pistol (or revolver), the correct way is to use the support hand thumb. It allows you to maintain a firing grip on the gun with your strong hand. It is not unheard of for people to drop or fumble guns when they are trying to thumbcock strong-handed in a hurry. It also keeps the trigger finger away from the trigger guard. Try it slow motion with an unloaded gun, and you will see that the trigger finger gets a bit close to the trigger guard -- bad thing in a hurry.
Many Marines (and soldiers, sailors, and airmen) get more and better training, but most just get this level of "familiarity" training, so they can check the box on their records. "Yep, fired a pistol once." My concern is with the common assumption that "military = competent with pistol." In a church or shopping mall, when somebody yells "Allah Akhbar" and starts shooting, who do I want to be there with a pistol? Alex Boriqua, or one of those physically fit young men seen in the video? I'll take the civilian hobbyist.
I agree with both of you.
This assumption that military personnel are somehow more trained may apply to special units but regular troops are getting the basic of basics. You want a laugh you should see what Hand to hand combat instruction was. I certainly learned more on the streets of NY that was useful.
I regularly practice out to the end of my indoor range but only double action. I probably haven't fired single action ten times in the past year.
I had two good friends that became NYPD back in the 80's. They qualified once a year and NEVER went to a range outside of that. They were given some up front time before their actual qualification to get some practice in then they would qualify. Done for another year.
This assumption that military personnel are somehow more trained may apply to special units but regular troops are getting the basic of basics. You want a laugh you should see what Hand to hand combat instruction was. I certainly learned more on the streets of NY that was useful.
I regularly practice out to the end of my indoor range but only double action. I probably haven't fired single action ten times in the past year.
I had two good friends that became NYPD back in the 80's. They qualified once a year and NEVER went to a range outside of that. They were given some up front time before their actual qualification to get some practice in then they would qualify. Done for another year.
hairygreek
Member
These are not recruits, they've been in the service at least 2-4 years. They're on a ship and have higher rank. But relatively few are pistol trained so depending on the shooter, might be their first time with a pistol.
YNOTAZ said:
I've had LEO friends for years and never could get one of them to go to the range with me. They all said they only shoot once or twice a year for qualification.
Always reminds me of my professional "Certifications." I've got 12 of them, all from places that are well known in the Electronics industry.
The funny thing is that of the 12, 10 are actually Attendance Certificates, ones where if you're still breathing at the end of the "class" then you become "Certified" in something or other.
The other two are for real Certifications and each has over a 50% flunk rate. They're also by invitation only, so even those who flunk out are proud of the fact that they got invited.
AJS214
Member
John Hansen was my first CCW instructor, and also the first person who introduced to me, at 21 years old, the idea of challenging the concept of assumed competency in military and law enforcement.
Before and after his class, I carried a handgun most of the time but not every day, and any live fire was mostly plinking in the desert or Ben Avery maybe five or six times a year. Any dry practice was only trigger presses, and usually only because I'd recently bought a new gun, which happened far more than buying ammo.
Still managed to get a certificate and a battalion coin in basic for maxing out M9 qual. The drill sergeants did set aside a few days somewhere in our cycle to learn about dry practice, but outside of that, dry practice on handguns was only something I'd heard about secondhand from older soldiers who were lucky enough to attend training with members of the Army Marksmanship Unit at some point in their service, or were brushing up for PSD school.
It still wasn't until about three or four years after being out of the military where I realized I didn't know what I didn't know. I think back about all those guns I wasted money on, the amount of training, competition, and ammunition I could have paid for instead, and the only thing that keeps me from wallowing in self-pity is knowing there are other folks who go their whole lives making the same mistake.
Before and after his class, I carried a handgun most of the time but not every day, and any live fire was mostly plinking in the desert or Ben Avery maybe five or six times a year. Any dry practice was only trigger presses, and usually only because I'd recently bought a new gun, which happened far more than buying ammo.
Still managed to get a certificate and a battalion coin in basic for maxing out M9 qual. The drill sergeants did set aside a few days somewhere in our cycle to learn about dry practice, but outside of that, dry practice on handguns was only something I'd heard about secondhand from older soldiers who were lucky enough to attend training with members of the Army Marksmanship Unit at some point in their service, or were brushing up for PSD school.
It still wasn't until about three or four years after being out of the military where I realized I didn't know what I didn't know. I think back about all those guns I wasted money on, the amount of training, competition, and ammunition I could have paid for instead, and the only thing that keeps me from wallowing in self-pity is knowing there are other folks who go their whole lives making the same mistake.
In the service I had very little hand gun training 99% was rifle, machine and long gun. When I got out and was recruited by other people, that's when i started pistol training.
I hate to pile on the poor guys, but this news item just appeared a few days ago.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/local/public-safety/marine-failed-to-properly-unload-his-pistol-before-fatal-shooting-of-fellow-marine-prosecutor-says/2019/08/22/20ca65b2-c4d9-11e9-9986-1fb3e4397be4_story.html?noredirect=on
https://www.washingtonpost.com/local/public-safety/marine-failed-to-properly-unload-his-pistol-before-fatal-shooting-of-fellow-marine-prosecutor-says/2019/08/22/20ca65b2-c4d9-11e9-9986-1fb3e4397be4_story.html?noredirect=on
- He didn't wait for a supervisor to watch him unload. Wait, what? Marines aren't capable of unloading a pistol without being observed by a supervisor? (Well, apparently not.)
- He didn't know how to unload a pistol.
- He was not aware of Rules One (All guns are always loaded) and Two (Don't point a gun at anything you are not prepared to destroy).
- He thought it would be "funny" to point a gun at his friend and pull the trigger.
- The Marines seem not to know the difference between a cartridge and a bullet, or a magazine and a clip.
[double tap]
AJS214
Member
When I think of training incidents, I usually think something along the lines of ultimately very costly lessons in the way we train that are occasionally re-learned. From 'Dog Guy' on P-F:
"On the subject of preventing these events by procedures and buddy checks: see https://www.wildfirelessons.net/HigherLogic/System/DownloadDocumentFile.ashx?DocumentFileKey=6c775743-abec-f8c3-c843-4596daf1a1bf&forceDialog=0 for a very good analysis of how humans miss the obvious. This was a helirappel fatal accident during training. Read the executive summary for context, and look at the photos on pages 21 through 27 so you'll understand what a total face palm this was for four trained people to miss an incorrect configuration. You can then skip to the Human Factors Analysis starting on page 33 (or just read the whole thing, which would be well worth your time). They do an excellent job of explaining the ways we can miss the obvious, or see the
obvious and convince ourselves that it's ok when it isn't."
That post was in a thread talking about an FoF exercise with Doral (FL) PD on Miami-Dade's facility where someone took a live round.
https://www.miamiherald.com/news/local/crime/article232028117.html
In the case of what you posted, which I unfortunately must presume wasn't just a Marine but an MA, this seems more like a problem child (given a previous record of misconduct with weapons) combined with a failure at multiple levels of leadership (at the very least for not sticking him on admin duty for being caught on video waving his pistol around while dancing, on duty at the Marine Barracks in our nation's capital). Even if we go along with the defense attorney's narrative, I don't think there's anyone in his chain of command that could be held responsible for NOT telling him pointing 'unloaded' guns at your buddy is a no-go. I don't think this quite fits the bill as a training inadequacy.
"On the subject of preventing these events by procedures and buddy checks: see https://www.wildfirelessons.net/HigherLogic/System/DownloadDocumentFile.ashx?DocumentFileKey=6c775743-abec-f8c3-c843-4596daf1a1bf&forceDialog=0 for a very good analysis of how humans miss the obvious. This was a helirappel fatal accident during training. Read the executive summary for context, and look at the photos on pages 21 through 27 so you'll understand what a total face palm this was for four trained people to miss an incorrect configuration. You can then skip to the Human Factors Analysis starting on page 33 (or just read the whole thing, which would be well worth your time). They do an excellent job of explaining the ways we can miss the obvious, or see the
obvious and convince ourselves that it's ok when it isn't."
That post was in a thread talking about an FoF exercise with Doral (FL) PD on Miami-Dade's facility where someone took a live round.
https://www.miamiherald.com/news/local/crime/article232028117.html
In the case of what you posted, which I unfortunately must presume wasn't just a Marine but an MA, this seems more like a problem child (given a previous record of misconduct with weapons) combined with a failure at multiple levels of leadership (at the very least for not sticking him on admin duty for being caught on video waving his pistol around while dancing, on duty at the Marine Barracks in our nation's capital). Even if we go along with the defense attorney's narrative, I don't think there's anyone in his chain of command that could be held responsible for NOT telling him pointing 'unloaded' guns at your buddy is a no-go. I don't think this quite fits the bill as a training inadequacy.
