LLC for suppressor
- Thread starter Wrenchman
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Yes. Have never bought one but a friend mine said he went the LLC because he wanted to be able to leave it to a family member in the event of his death. I am thinking about purchasing one, but havent done any research on it.
Wrenchman said:
"Worth it" meaning what, exactly?
A Form 1 is used when you are making a suppressor/NFA item from scratch...builing an SBR or suppressor from a kit.
A Form 4 is used when you purchase a suppressor/NFA item from a dealer.
It's not a faster process...in fact it will be more intensive. Each responsible person needs to submit finger prints and photos for the Form 4.
Personally, all my NFA items are in a trust. I am the only responsible person. Family members are listed as beneficiaries, not responsible persons. I would never let anyone borrow my suppressor or NFA firearm...regardless of their status. I didn't spend an extra $200 and wait 14 months just so my idiot brother can fail to attach my suppressor correctly and strike every baffle when he tries to bump fire it. The trust makes it easier in probate...when I die, I don't give two shits what happens to my suppressors and NFA items.
Wrenchman said:
An NFA Trust and an LLC will do the same thing. However, starting an LLC is much more difficult than creating a trust. Lawyer fees, publish LLC info in a paper of record, etc. An NFA trust can be done in your home in 15 minutes....all you need is a notary public to stamp it.
NFA Trusts are readily available and very, very simple. Silencer Shop will create a trust for you for like $50 (right now they are on sale for $25). They make it as simple as possible; all you need to do is find a gun shop with a Silencer Shop Kiosk in their store.
The only upside of a trust, IMO, is the ability to change it anytime you need to. Want to add a trustee? Just amend the trust. Want to cut someone out of the trust? Just amend the trust. Think of it more like a living will...it works basically the same way.
If you never intend to let the NFA item out of your sight? Then don't add anyone as a Trustee other then yourself.
Wrenchman said:
Used to be, in theory. Not any longer.
A Form 4 just takes time. No way around it. Get used to it, and live a happier life. Buy the suppressor, send in the paperwork, and forget about it. A watched pot never boils.
One other point based on the original post. An LLC is not secret. I can go to the AZ Corp Commission web site and see all the members. A trust, can have a one page "declaration of Trust" and that is all that is needed to show anyone. As far as the ATF, as M4 mentioned if you have one responsible party the paperwork is the same as am individual except you include a copy of the trust.
There is one more game people are playing and it is perfectly legal. Create a master trust with your spouse, 4 children, all your aunt sand uncles as trustees. make a carbon copy of that trust with you as the only trustee and the beneficiary is the master trust. Name each "sub-trust" with something like NFAHybridxxxxxx where xxxxxxx is the serial number.
The benefit is you are the only responsible party so only one set of finger prints. when you die, all your NFA items are left to the master trust named "MrSmithScrewsTheMan" and all the trustees named have access to all the NFA items.
Think about your needs and your future but don't do an LLC, way to public go trust instead.
There is one more game people are playing and it is perfectly legal. Create a master trust with your spouse, 4 children, all your aunt sand uncles as trustees. make a carbon copy of that trust with you as the only trustee and the beneficiary is the master trust. Name each "sub-trust" with something like NFAHybridxxxxxx where xxxxxxx is the serial number.
The benefit is you are the only responsible party so only one set of finger prints. when you die, all your NFA items are left to the master trust named "MrSmithScrewsTheMan" and all the trustees named have access to all the NFA items.
Think about your needs and your future but don't do an LLC, way to public go trust instead.
Husker makes a good point and it reminded me of another benefit of a trust over an LLC.
If written correctly, you can modify a trust without notifying anyone, like add or remove a beneficiary or add or remove a trustee. A hypothetical, due to an injury you can no longer shoot but you want your NFA items to continue appreciating and not change ownership and you will not be adding to your collection. You simply amend the trust to add whoever, you want to allow access, as a trustee and they or others can still be beneficiaries after you die.
Think through the beneficiary part so you add alternates, another Hypothetical: you have one son and your wife hates guns, your son is your only beneficiary, he moves to Chicago for a new job, you die, he can't legally own or even posses any of your NFA items due to state and city laws there, or he gets a felony DUI, etc. Have an alternate.
If you have an LLC on the other hand you have to be concerned about what your state does with an LLC after you die. In some states they automatically terminate a sole member LLC. That is not what happens in Arizona but this is worth reading for anyone wanting an LLC or already having one:
https://www.keytlaw.com/azllclaw/operating-llcs/inherit-your-llc/
If written correctly, you can modify a trust without notifying anyone, like add or remove a beneficiary or add or remove a trustee. A hypothetical, due to an injury you can no longer shoot but you want your NFA items to continue appreciating and not change ownership and you will not be adding to your collection. You simply amend the trust to add whoever, you want to allow access, as a trustee and they or others can still be beneficiaries after you die.
Think through the beneficiary part so you add alternates, another Hypothetical: you have one son and your wife hates guns, your son is your only beneficiary, he moves to Chicago for a new job, you die, he can't legally own or even posses any of your NFA items due to state and city laws there, or he gets a felony DUI, etc. Have an alternate.
If you have an LLC on the other hand you have to be concerned about what your state does with an LLC after you die. In some states they automatically terminate a sole member LLC. That is not what happens in Arizona but this is worth reading for anyone wanting an LLC or already having one:
https://www.keytlaw.com/azllclaw/operating-llcs/inherit-your-llc/
There are no lawyer fees to start an LLC and in fact its probably easier and as cheap as doing a trust. Its literally a few online forms on the AZ Corporation Commission website and nominal fees. At least in AZ. That said the reason i went the LLC Route was to avoid CLEO sign off and Fingerprints. But that changed and now you need them regardless if its a trust, LLC or individual. So the LLC has no real appeal anymore other than its an entity that does not die similar to a trust. My NFA LLC is now included in my Family Trust so the same thing was accomplished. The last things i have done NFA wise i have just done individually its simpler. There are mechanisms to do tax free transfers in the event of your demise. If the Silencer shop ever gets there form 1 to be a regular thing i will never do a transfer any other way. My last suppressor came through relatively fast using the silencer shop kiosk and there form 4.
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