38 super ?

[Boriqua]

So tell me what you know about 38 super especially if you have some first hand experience.

Curious as usual and have never seen a gun chambered for it in person and am not really sure why it came to be or what it might do better or worse than other cartridges.

 

[AZ Husker]

Very versatile round. It's an old cartridge used often in competition shooting. Think of it as a 9mm magnum. It's one of my favorites. I have a Guncrafter 9mm that I sent back to have a 38 Super barrel fitted. Shoot either round with a simple barrel/recoil spring change. Many guys have this multi-caliber pistol setup.

 

[QuietM4]

38 Super is usually a custom race gun caliber...basically a 9mm, just more room in the case for powder.

Rare to see a factory offering, unless you are Colt and for some reason thought it was important to make a Mexican Heritage line of 1911's chambered in 38 Super.

 

[Suck My Glock]

I was enamored with .38super back in the early 90's when IPSC shooters started using it for competition to reach Major power factor but with less recoil than .45acp. And I remained so for quite a long time. Especially once ramped barrels came about, more fully supporting the cartridge base and allowing for more safely achieving performance nearing .357magnum.

But then .357SIG happened, as well as 9x25Dillon. Suddenly, .38super wasn't as super after all. But I still liked the capability it represented. For a brief period, I had a Caspian wide-body .38super racegun with compensator that I bought for a song and was going to convert into a non-optic carry piece. But that's a long story why I abandoned that.

The shorthand is that to get out of .38super what it can potentially offer requires handloading. Buuuut,...the cartridge is a little funky, in that the bullet diameter is unique to itself, and the semi-rimmed case is not optimal either.

Back in the early 90s, Winchester tried to invent the replacement for .38super with the introduction of the 9x23Winchester. It essentially duplicated .38super ballistic potential, but used a standard 9mm .355 diameter projectile and a rimless case. Essentially, the 9x23 is nothing more than the pre-existing 9mmLargo, but loaded to more modern pressures. You can fire a 9mmLargo in a 9x23, but don't try the reverse, or you'll blow up your 9mmLargo pistol. The problem though, was that so many competitors were already so heavily invested in .38super dies, and bullet molds and gear, that they were resistant to just switching over to the 9x23. And a little less than a year after the 9x23 was introduced, the .357SIG hit the scene. Because the .357SIG (based on the .40S&W case) could be adapted to and fit and fire in guns originally designed for .40 and 9mmPara, whereas the 9x23 required guns with frames capable of longer cartridges,...the .357SIG just was more readily embraced. Almost no one remembers the 9x23 now.

If I were to craft a hi-cap pistol today in the image of the .38super, I would chamber it in 9x23. The projectile selection and availability is better. Longevity of the cases to be reloaded is better. Load data between the two is nearly identical. Even new production brass is not a challenge, thanks to Starline, who manufactures it still. (They also do production runs stamped either 9mmLargo or 9x23, and both will work.) Regular 9mmPara dies can be used, even.

 

[tunnug]

38 Super became popular in Mexico because civilians are prohibited from owning any caliber that is used by the current military, having a .45 1911 will get you arrested there.
I have several and I call it my hot rod 9, it uses the same projectiles when you reload for it, the round was developed back in the early 1900's.

 

[Boriqua]

Lots of awesome info guys! Thank you!

Just looking around and factory rounds are going 124gr at 1450fps advertised. That's a nice round. And it is straight wall so should be easier to load. I haven't dug deep enough but it appears the cartridges are a fair bit longer than 9 mm. What is OAL?

Edited to add
Dayum. Very interesting

https://www.guns.com/firearms/handguns/semi-auto/dan-wesson-guardian-38-super-single-action-9-rounds-4-barrel-1.8-new?p=2656

 

[AZ Husker]

38 Super became popular in Mexico because civilians are prohibited from owning any caliber that is used by the current military, having a .45 1911 will get you arrested there.

Ever go to the Crossroads shows? Guarantee you will see Mexican men wearing a hat and expensive boots. These guys have money. They grab every .38 Super they can find. Good thing for them it's easier to sneak things into Mexico than the other way

 

[tunnug]

Oh Yeah!!, I can spot those types right away, they have a certain look to the way they dress and act.
OAL for the Super Automatic is 1.280"

 

[Pscipio03]

38 Super and 38 Super Comp are fun to load and to shoot. As others have stated it's like the magnum version of a 9mm.
I have a custom 1911 doublestack that I had the smith build in 9mm with a 38 Super conversion (barrel and extractor) and I find myself shooting the Super more. And the Cor Bon 125gr SD ammo I carry in it scoot at just shy of 1,400 fps and pack a wallop.
Downside is the ammo is not cheap- but I am seeing it available online more than 9mm at this point.

 

[Intel6]

I started with super when I built up a comp gun in it back in the 90's and it is still used a lot in competition because it has the case volume to be able to use slower powders and generate more gas for the compensators. As others have said it is basically "long" 9mm. What many don't know is that it is a semi-rimmed cartridge much like the .32 ACP. In competition guns that small rim could cause issues with feeding/chambering in the double stack guns. The 9x23 became popular because it is basically the same length (had the case volume) but was rimless so it tended to work much better in competition guns. One other thing about the 9x23 was that the case was designed with more "meat" in the case head so it was able to stand up better to the repeated higher pressure loadings. So then Starline started making 38 Super Comp which is basically a rimless 38 super. This worked better in the competition guns and all you needed to do was tweak the extractor. I ran super comp in my .38 Super and it ran fine without messing with the extractor so I can run either in my comp gun. I also ended up with a 9x23 comp gun and it worked great also. I certainly wouldn't mind a 1911 in super or 9x23, considered getting a 9mm and fitting a new barrel.

found a pic of the two comp guns I was talking about. On the top is a Infinity 2011 in 9x23 that I have since refreshed into 9mm major and then the bottom is a Caspian based in super built by Wayne Berquist in FL.

 

[Flash]

So tell me what you know about 38 super especially if you have some first hand experience.

Curious as usual and have never seen a gun chambered for it in person and am not really sure why it came to be or what it might do better or worse than other cartridges.

Since no one else gave you the true reason for why it came to be, I will.

The cartridge was designed for use in the M1911 pistol and was capable of penetrating the body armor and automobile bodies of the late 1920s. When the .357 Magnum was introduced in 1934, this advantage of the .38 Super was no longer enough to lure police departments and officers from the traditional double-action revolver.

It has value to the citizens of Mexico for other reasons.

A friend of mine has a couple of them and I've shot them. Nice guns with only one real drawback that I've seen and that's the difficulty of obtaining brass, especially if you like free brass, like range pickups.

Les Baer of Les Baer Customs uses one for his carry gun, which is an interesting factoid.

 

[Harrier]

IIRC... The part of penetrating car bodies was the birth of the 357 magnum. The 38acp existed long before that, like around 1905, and is an anemic round with case dims exactly those of the 38Super.
I had a nice 1911 super back in the 80's, Barsto ramped barrel, i loaded to major before they changed the power factor- it was not easy to make those 45 PF levels in the small cases and using 160gr bullets and AA5 they were pushing the envelope.
I sold my super a couple months ago... sorry to see it go but I haven't shot it in years (except for de-casing 2000 loads to sell with it) I just found 500+ nickle cases I didn't know I had if anyone is interested PM me.

 

[knockonit]

i have several and did shoot it quite a lot, but with all calibers i tend to shoot, i move on, but do keep a supply of rounds, just in case.
nice round, easy shooter, fun shooter actually
happy sunday
Rj

 

[792mauser]

Got myself a Rock Island 38super a few years ago as a birthday present.
It's a neat little cartridge. Bit blasty but low recoil and rise.
Natural second paring with the 1911 after .45acp.

 

[baby huey]

I had a Colt 1911 in 38 Super. Really pleasant to shoot but typical Colt quality, the front sight went flying before I shot 100 rounds. I never trusted it much even though that was the only glitch. If Colt ever makes a Classic Combat Commander in 38 Super I’ll get another.

 

[pneuby]

I recall Dane Burns of Pistolsmith.com being a huge proponent of that 9.23 when it was intro'd.
I'd literally forgotten all about it. I'm told that's why 9x21 is poplular in Europe, as 9mm is 'military'.
It would seem to me that 9x21 in a modern pistol could be boosted above 9mm power, but perhaps I am mistaken.

 

[Harrier]

The Super is essentially a 9mm magnum and can be easily hot-nodded.
If it were more mainstream I wouldn't have sold mine and probably would standardize on it instead of 9mm, but there's not a wide selection or pocket sizes available... sort of like the 41 mag- nice specs but not a lot of interest. Other than the semi-rim headspace design (fixed by the 9x23), the primary fail is the need for longer 1911 size magazines. It makes for a handful in a double-stack grip.

 

[Boriqua]

So it uses unique brass but Small Pistol primers and any 9mm bullets? I read at one source it prefers magnum primers .. any truth to that?

Aint got me no money for a new gun purchase but .. this 38 super thing just appeared on my radar and i must admit I am intrigued and in previous intrigued phases I found a few dollars in the seat cushion.

I have had plenty of 1911's but dont currently own one and I think I need one to fill out my meager collection. I do love shooting them!

Have been looking at another 45 and even have brass set aside already but .. this 38 super sounds fun and amazingly I am finding brass available just fine and even some nice pricing on Ammo.... Hmmmmm

 

[Harrier]

The other issue I had was my ramped barrel was fitted to the frame so i couldn't just swap out any 'ol barrel and convert it- don't know if the new ones or colt are any different but if it was me i'd want the ramped barrel. I would have like to have it in 9mm for compatibility and ammo logistics even though I reload and had 2k+ of cases - in my old days i'm trying to get down to just 2 or 3 pistol calibers.

 

[Boriqua]

i'm trying to get down to just 2 or 3 pistol calibers.

That's funny. I just finished doing this and here I am thinking about adding another caliber!? Ugh

Got it down to loading for 40 and 38/357