Trust questions

Discuss any Title II or NFA items like machineguns, suppressors, SBR's, SBS's, DD's and AoW's.
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jnojr
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Trust questions

#1

Post by jnojr »

I figured I'd do an NFA trust. I've read about 41F and know it's more of a headache now. A lot of people are suggesting using new trusts for each item, so you only have to do the fingerprints & photo for one person (me). But after that, how do I get other people to be able to hold, use, etc. the items without an enormous headache? Can I transfer them from the little trust to a master trust?


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Re: Trust questions

#2

Post by Doc »

Not today Special Agent. 😂


If you are serious consider this. Nobody from the internet will be defending your actions at trial.


This question is for a lawyer.
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Re: Trust questions

#3

Post by jnojr »

DevilDocAZ wrote: August 14th, 2021, 1:02 pm Not today Special Agent. 😂


If you are serious consider this. Nobody from the internet will be defending your actions at trial.


This question is for a lawyer.
Every legal question is "for a lawyer". Doesn't stop anyone from discussing.

I'm not asking anyone to "defend my actions". I'm asking a question that has been touched on over and over, but not answered in a way that made sense to me.

If you don't know, or don't want to discuss, nobody is forcing you to respond.
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Re: Trust questions

#4

Post by Doc »

jnojr wrote: August 14th, 2021, 1:30 pm
DevilDocAZ wrote: August 14th, 2021, 1:02 pm Not today Special Agent. 😂


If you are serious consider this. Nobody from the internet will be defending your actions at trial.


This question is for a lawyer.
Every legal question is "for a lawyer". Doesn't stop anyone from discussing.

I'm not asking anyone to "defend my actions". I'm asking a question that has been touched on over and over, but not answered in a way that made sense to me.

If you don't know, or don't want to discuss, nobody is forcing you to respond.
Discuss away how you intend to subvert the law to ease the burden deliberately put in place to catch you in this very situation.


There may be a price to pay depending on your actions and the “advice” discussed here.


See I live in a country where innocent people are incarcerated daily for crimes of “intent”


This will be my last reply. I suggest you delete the thread before admin does. I doubt he wants to be seen as providing a platform for your quasi legal/illegal discussions.
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Re: Trust questions

#5

Post by jnojr »

If there is something "illegal" in my question, I'd appreciate someone pointing it out. I'm all for an abundance of caution. But, again, this is a topic I've seen asked about several times in several forums... just no answer that I "got". There are several questions about trusts right here on this forum.
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Re: Trust questions

#6

Post by jnojr »

http://www.azgunlaw.com/loophole-gun-trust.html begins to discuss this exact scenario.
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Re: Trust questions

#7

Post by cool arrow »

This thread is giving me "trust" issues....

JK, I have had my trust for years, have spoken to the ATF about it during transfers, and think they are a great way to go.
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Re: Trust questions

#8

Post by YNOTAZ »

Here is what people are doing: They are writing a “master trust” then an individual trust for each item. The individual trust has one person on it, themselves. They duplicate this paperwork for each item and just change the name of the individual trust to be the manufacturer/SN of the item, like: “ScorpionSBR-1234567”. The individual trusts will name the “master trust” as the successor trustee should they die. The master trust might have 10 people on it who can sort out the transfer issues when the trustee of individual trusts dies.

To the second part of your question, let other people hold and use something in the individual trusts. As long as the item is under your control, you can let people hold, shoot, play with, fondle, whatever. You cannot however let them borrow anything and take it out of your control.

You can also play a game by adding trustees to the individual trust after you receive an approval for an item. There is no requirement to notify ATF of changes in your trust. HOWEVER, there are significant cons. Add me as a trustee, loan me your full-auto MP5SD, that I don’t return. What do you do, modify your trust once again to remove me, call somebody and tell them the game you were playing to avoid background checks?

That might get you Flynned. Being technically legal but losing everything to courts and attorneys, ultimately having to plead to some lesser offense in order to stop the bleeding and get out of prison before you get Epsteined.

You will also likely spend a couple grand to get the master trust and first individual trust done correctly. Frankly if someone want to fondle my stuff when I’m not around, they should be willing to dirty their fingers and get a picture taken.
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Re: Trust questions

#9

Post by MCM34 »

Isn't this the way a silencer shop sure shot trust works? Form a new trust for each NFA item, with however many responsible people you want on the initial paperwork. Then once approved you can add and remove people at will to the trust without resubmitting to the AFT?
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Re: Trust questions

#10

Post by YNOTAZ »

Yes, but the OPs intent was not to do prints and pics for a gaggle of other folks but allow them to use his toys.

It is legal to change the trust after approval but if you establish a pattern of avoiding prints and pics like that, you will likely get an unpleasant visit.
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Re: Trust questions

#11

Post by QuietM4 »

jnojr wrote: August 14th, 2021, 11:29 am how do I get other people to be able to hold, use, etc. the items without an enormous headache?
If you are present with the NFA item, anyone can use it. You must be in control of the item...meaning you can't loan it out to a friend if you aren't going to be with the item.
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Re: Trust questions

#12

Post by jnojr »

Thanks, everyone, for the input.

I'm gathering that the master trust is the beneficiary of the little individual trusts. What happens when I croak, and the individual trusts pour over into the master? Is that a $200 taxable event per? What about items that are engraved "Colt 123456 Trust" and are now part of "My Master NFA Trust"?

I'm going to see how much to consult with an attorney on this, but I do appreciate the info!
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Re: Trust questions

#13

Post by YNOTAZ »

AZ1182 wrote: August 15th, 2021, 3:33 pm At no point in time did the OP suggest or ask for ways to subvert the law.
He asked how he could legally get his other NFA guns into one trust with names on said trust so it would be kosher and legal.
Geeesh reading comprehension is not your first skill or you want to furnish your opinion without reading.

Op said:
jnojr wrote: August 14th, 2021, 11:29 am I figured I'd do an NFA trust. I've read about 41F and know it's more of a headache now. A lot of people are suggesting using new trusts for each item, so you only have to do the fingerprints & photo for one person (me). But after that, how do I get other people to be able to hold, use, etc. the items without an enormous headache? Can I transfer them from the little trust to a master trust?
Op did not say he already had a trust
Op said he figured he would do a trust
Op did not ask how to get other NFA guns into a non-existing trust
Op did ask how he could do a trust with him as the only trustee and add people later "without the enormous headache" which one can only deduce is the "fingerprints & photo" as Op stated.

And yes, creating multiple trusts, which the Op also mentioned, then adding people later to the multiple trusts would be frowned on by the ATF.

Like I said once already, it is legal BUTT "That might get you Flynned. Being technically legal but losing everything to courts and attorneys"
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Re: Trust questions

#14

Post by YNOTAZ »

jnojr wrote: August 16th, 2021, 9:44 am Thanks, everyone, for the input.

I'm gathering that the master trust is the beneficiary of the little individual trusts. What happens when I croak, and the individual trusts pour over into the master? Is that a $200 taxable event per? What about items that are engraved "Colt 123456 Trust" and are now part of "My Master NFA Trust"?

I'm going to see how much to consult with an attorney on this, but I do appreciate the info!
All that has to be engraved is the manufacturer "Colt 123456 Trust" when it is manufactured, not the current owner.

I have no experience with the transfer to beneficiaries of NFA items from wills, trusts or estates. Remember this only occurs when the current trustees die and I know there is a transfer process ATF allows for that and perhaps someone that has done it or knows how to do it will chime in.

Just in case you were going there, you can't buy or build an NFA item in an individual trust then just transfer it to another master trust. That would entail a form 4 transfer and all the trustees of the master trust would have to get prints and photos which is what you're trying to avoid.
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Re: Trust questions

#15

Post by QuietM4 »

jnojr wrote: August 16th, 2021, 9:44 am Thanks, everyone, for the input.

I'm gathering that the master trust is the beneficiary of the little individual trusts. What happens when I croak, and the individual trusts pour over into the master? Is that a $200 taxable event per? What about items that are engraved "Colt 123456 Trust" and are now part of "My Master NFA Trust"?

I'm going to see how much to consult with an attorney on this, but I do appreciate the info!
YOU DO NOT NEED INDIVIDUAL TRUSTS FOR EACH NFA ITEM. Stop thinking this way...you are making a task with a difficulty rating of 2 and making it a 7 for no reason.

You want ONE trust. ONLY ONE. As part of any trust, there is a section that is generally called "Schedule A". This is a list of all property/items in the trust. It can be amended at any time, and as often as you wish....you just add/remove items by simply typing up a new page, print it out and sign/date it. Done.

Unless you need your brother/sister/wife/son/daughter/cousin/BFF/neighbor/etc to be able to borrow your NFA items without you being present, there is absolutely zero reason for anyone other than yourself to be the sole trustee/grantor. When you die, there person(s) you want the property in Schedule A to go to are the Beneficiaries. That can be whomever you choose. In my trust, they are my father, mother, and sister...in that specific order. If no one wants them, then I don't give a s*** what happens to them...I'll be dead.

Please read the entire article by The Silencer Shop. They are the best in the business at this type of thing...they have made it as simple as is possible.
https://www.silencershop.com/blog/post/ ... alGunTrust
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