WE NEED YOU

[YNOTAZ]

We had a meeting with BLM today concerning recreational desert shooting. Our goals:
#1 reopen portions of BLM land to recreational desert shooting and leave existing areas open.
#2 make current BLM ranges safer.
#3 improve the existing BLM ranges for desert shooters.

We have convinced BLM that the design of their current ranges are not conducive to those that build firearms and test them in the desert, reload and want to test accuracy on paper, and/or chronograph their loads, mount optics or irons and want to sight-in, run practice drills or draw from holsters, run timed drills, shoot calibers like .338 Lapua or .50BMG with huge muzzle breaks, recover your brass for high end cartridges, etc.

What BLM agreed to was to accept recommendations from real shooters who want more than what indoor ranges and Ben Avery have to offer. They will give feedback on how they can address our recommendations, not like the perfunctory public meeting they had before building current BLM ranges.

What BLM hopes to gain out of this:
#1 Recommendations to improve safety on current ranges
#2 Improve current ranges to better serve desert shooters
#3 Methods to address the trash that casual desert shooters leave behind after shooting up a microwave, a big-screen TV, or glass that causes brush fires. Without methods to control trashing the desert, the march to close shooting on public lands will continue.

The approach, is to have a round table discussion on how best to address:
#1 What we need and want as shooters
#2 Can BLM meet our desires in constructed ranges
#3 How to police the idiots that are destroying open desert, causing more closures.

Planning is already in process for “Table Mesa recreation area”.

If you are interested in participating in a roundtable discussion to help, send a message with your contact information. The date has not been set, the location will be a room at the BLM office 2020 E Bell Road, no personal information will be shared with BLM unless the group decides they want their contact info shared.

 

[Lobo2087]

Who is we?

 

[Ballistic Therapy]

Who is we?

Excellent question.

 

[knockonit]

Yes it is, its a couple known shooters on this site and others who have been months attempting to access proper individuals in regards to BLM issues on present and future ranges and closures of areas. While there is no promise of acceptance, there is a desire for imput from real desert shooters for imput on range design, layout ect. As desert shooters have a totally different decipline than a formal range, those of you that shoot in the wild, know my drift.

if interested, contact tony or I , we have yet to determine a date, but have a commitment of space provided by BLM at their location, and perhaps a third uninterested party to convene.
thanks for you time and consideration
Rj


This is a great opportunity to have some imput, that may have an impact on future and present shooting opportunities on blm land, its important that like minded folks interested in assisting in coming up with some ideas, in regards to items mentioned.
Its not a bitch session, but a session that will not be guided by blm, but shooters, off roaders, hunters wishing to have imput on future sites and present.

who knows if it can produce anything, but one will not know if its not attempted.
reach out and advise if interested we hope to bring informed folks to the table to discuss and perhaps come up with possible solutions to issues.

thanks for your time
RJ

 

[YNOTAZ]

Who is we?

"We" is me & RJ. There is no group, no organization, no funding, just shooters.

Bottom line is BLM wants to control everything and with the help of “consultants” they think they’re giving us everything we normally use when shooting outdoors.

Me & RJ know what we do, and what we need, but we don’t want to be like BLM and assume we have everything covered that everyone else needs or wants in outdoor shooting.

So, we’re asking for help. Probably worst case, 3 hours total, including travel time for a meeting. We will have a meeting moderator so nobody just steals the meeting, we stay on track, and we make concrete recommendations. If you can’t make it, find a spokesperson and give them your talking points.

If we do nothing BLM will continue to assume they’re doing a great job. This is a prototype or test-bed for nationwide outdoor shooting on BLM lands. Let’s at least try to get it right.

 

[Lobo2087]

Gotcha I was curious. Didn't mean if it sounded bad

 

[YNOTAZ]

Gotcha I was curious. Didn't mean if it sounded bad

Not taken as bad, but it did raise an interesting issue. Others might think there is some group behind this or funding it with some agenda.

The question allowed me to say that it is just a couple shooter hoping to enlist more shooters for more ideas.

One thought that comes to mind and not one of my needs.

My kids are grown, they've all been taught how to handle firearms. One need of a younger family is a capability to train new, young shooters. On their first few outings, they may not handle firearms well, so it is best to be isolated. Being at a formal range like Avery or even semi-formal like BLM's Church Camp, could easily get you kicked off the range.

Kind of like teaching your kid to drive on 101 rather than alone, in a big open parking lot, just jump on 101 and mash on the gas.

 

[BigNate]

Happy to plug in if you want me to...

Edit: I presume that this is not something that is going to require 100s of hours of time. I'm good sitting down at a round table a time or two (or more) and discussing what would work for "people like me." I'm probably not a good candidate if it is going to need 10 hours a week of my time...

 

[rockbronco]

Gotcha I was curious. Didn't mean if it sounded bad

My kids are grown, they've all been taught how to handle firearms. One need of a younger family is a capability to train new, young shooters. On their first few outings, they may not handle firearms well, so it is best to be isolated. Being at a formal range like Avery or even semi-formal like BLM's Church Camp, could easily get you kicked off the range.

Kind of like teaching your kid to drive on 101 rather than alone, in a big open parking lot, just jump on 101 and mash on the gas.

Im here or will be here very soon with teaching my kids how to shoot. All the spots I would have gone for this have been disappearing fast and these BLM ranges dont make me feel comfortable bringing my kids there to be able to teach them safely at our own pace. This would be a big deal to have for our family.

I would be willing to go to the meeting, however after seeing how BLM showed the same "genuine" interest with offroad trails in bumblebee/tablemesa to only turn around and screw it up not sure how much faith I have in them doing us right as shooters. With that said if the opportunity is given to have a discussion and share our wants and needs we better take it or dont bitch about it when it goes the opposite way.

 

[knockonit]

yep, BLM has a horrible track record on public imput, but and its a big one, if one does not try, and improve it, i've dealt with blm for decades on old family ranch leasings, and can say had a gaggle of short falls, but one can never give up, never out of the fight, if we can bring intelligent recommendations and not personal pet pieves to the table, it just might move the hill a tad, just saying.
Rj

 

[xerts1191]

We’re from the Government and we’re here to help, thanks for posting YNOT

 

[YNOTAZ]

Im here or will be here very soon with teaching my kids how to shoot. All the spots I would have gone for this have been disappearing fast and these BLM ranges dont make me feel comfortable bringing my kids there to be able to teach them safely at our own pace. This would be a big deal to have for our family.

I would be willing to go to the meeting, however after seeing how BLM showed the same "genuine" interest with offroad trails in bumblebee/tablemesa to only turn around and screw it up not sure how much faith I have in them doing us right as shooters. With that said if the opportunity is given to have a discussion and share our wants and needs we better take it or dont b**** about it when it goes the opposite way.

Well, FYI, I also have our congresswoman and the one senator with a brain involved on the periphery.

I'm not sure what we are attempting will do anything but I'm absolutely certain if we do nothing we are screwed.

If you can help, send me a DM with contact info and as this progresses, I will keep in touch with possible times and dates, or anything else we learn.

 

[watchthewind]

I'll start off with.... I've never shot at any of these ranges. I've only looked at them online and read the rules. I pretty much just shoot matches at Ben Avery. IMHO it might be a good idea to add cover to the firing points and allow folks to set up frames for paper targets.
Scott

 

[knockonit]

the jist of meeting is to also address the huge closure of areas that were used for shooting on blm land locally, indication from contact is possible removal of some areas to allow additional shooting spaces, that will accommodate the desert style shooting, and help keep existing open areas to remain open.
at hand is a possible avenue to effect ''some'' change, anyone that has dealt with blm, on anything land or access related, knows how the drill will work, indication of willingness to meet and discuss and take imput from actual users, ''may'' assist in resolving some issues, but without imput from locals, then its a gambit on who, where, what they will close or limit access to.
a small amount of time to discuss possible avenues to resolve is a cheap investment in the future.
of course just my opinion ,and that of a few others, to do nothing is akin to rolling over and let'm put it to you.
Rj
Modify message

 

[rockbronco]

PM with contact info sent.

Hopefully more will show some interest. I have my hesitations but I agree with RJ and YNOTAZ. If there is no attempt at showing up to attempt change then its as good as giving up and bending over for the inevitable.

 

[baja]

I live way on the east side and haven't really been in that area except for occasionally passing by on I17.
But that being said, if there's something I can do to help out just let me know.

 

[YNOTAZ]

I'll start off with.... I've never shot at any of these ranges. I've only looked at them online and read the rules. I pretty much just shoot matches at Ben Avery. IMHO it might be a good idea to add cover to the firing points and allow folks to set up frames for paper targets.
Scott

Scott,
How about you commit to joining us for the brainstorming session. What do you need to practice for matches, besides shade, and your own targets?

If we were discussing this in a room, I would give up constructed shade structures, since we bring pop-ups for our own shade, in order to be able to go downrange for our own targets, steel paper, etc, and chronographs.

That is why we want a bunch of people together to throw out ideas.

 

[watchthewind]

YNOTAZ you've got PM

 

[YNOTAZ]

Got it, thanks If I can find the original email we sent to BLM about shortcomings in the existing ranges, I will post it here.

The issues we are trying to address are, can we turn these multi-million-dollar ranges into places to shoot, with the same or at least similar capabilities of open desert shooting without turning them into just another Ben Avery with sorrowful maintenance. As an alternative reopen areas used for the past 40 years for open desert shooting where there is no conflict with the formal ranges to allow us a choice.

 

[YNOTAZ]

Just an FYI. This is supposed to be a prototype for nationwide. If they can get it to fly all over AZ, ranked number 1 in gun rights it will be all over AZ and all across the country.

For those folks down in Tucson, if you can get enough support down there, we will try to get a meeting room down there and a remote meeting link to the meeting up here.

We haven't discussed this with BLM yet but they did show up rooms up here with remote conferencing capabilities, so it isn't impossible.