Roller lock platform

[shooter444]

As a re-loader I dislike the chamber flutes left in fired cases from a roller lock G3 or PTR-91. They eventually flatten out but I still don't like them deforming the brass.

On better quality brass you simply get carbon streaking and not deformation.

Better Quality Brass ?? LOL come-on...
I've reloaded enough of it to have a different opinion...
The chamber is fluted and firing pressure will expand any and all brass to conform to shape- as part of the extraction system it is designed to provide more frictional delay, allowing pressure to subside before the rollers take over. It is essentially a blow-back system. If there are only carbon marks from the grooves, it's because the chamber is carboned up from lack of cleaning of blowback over several thousand shots.

Agreed, Harrier,... I shot Remington, Federal, Hornady and Magtec factory ammo from my PTR and everyone had dented/flute marked shoulders, and everyone could be identified after full length sizing to reload.

The rifle functioned flawlessly and accurately for the many years I owned it,... but, like I stated earlier, the ergonomics sucked, for me!

 

[brandyspaw]

It seems the Century guns have become a lot more consistent in quality these days. The older Century G3's and CETME's were spotty in quality as they were farmed out to different builders and used poorly
made receivers as well. So there was no consistency as some would function fine and others were just welded up messes with off kilter sights, ground bolts and other maladies.

I wound up buying a CETME from a dealer several years ago and had to return it for replacement twice before I got one that functioned correctly. Even then the welding looked horrible although it did work ok. My dealer at the time even stopped selling any delayed roller action Century's because he was tired of all the problems/returns. He still stocked a lot of the Century AK's but called it quits on the G3 type guns.

I still have that old CETME and its getting close to needing some larger rollers but it still running fine. At least it doesn't have a ground bolt and so it should be easy to correct the headspace. Its not so great on aesthetics compared to a real deal HK-91 but it does function fine.

 

[Steve_In_29]

As a re-loader I dislike the chamber flutes left in fired cases from a roller lock G3 or PTR-91. They eventually flatten out but I still don't like them deforming the brass.

On better quality brass you simply get carbon streaking and not deformation.

Better Quality Brass ?? LOL come-on...
I've reloaded enough of it to have a different opinion...
The chamber is fluted and firing pressure will expand any and all brass to conform to shape- as part of the extraction system it is designed to provide more frictional delay, allowing pressure to subside before the rollers take over. It is essentially a blow-back system. If there are only carbon marks from the grooves, it's because the chamber is carboned up from lack of cleaning of blowback over several thousand shots.

Close but no cigar as to the operation of HK's roller-delayed rifle design.

Yes they are basically a blow-back operation BUT the delay is provided by the roller system and NOT the fluted chamber. The flutes are there NOT to provide extra drag to slow the movement of the bolt but to allow the gases to float the empty casing away from the chamber walls. The German engineers who originally designed the system for the Stg45 near the end of WWII found that absent the flutes the cases stuck to the chamber walls and the extractor simply ripped the case heads off.

If your understanding was correct then steel cased ammo (which I have never seen expand into the flutes) would cause the gun to cycle harder and lead to breakage. Which is not the case in my experience nor have I heard reports from the HK crowd of such concerns.

You are correct though that a dirty enough chamber will prevent even the softest brass from deforming. Yet even then the rifle will still keep functioning as the HK (unlike the AR which also craps where it eats) was designed to run DIRTY. I very rarely clean either of my PTRs and have never encountered a failure due to that. Though I can understand where more regular cleaning could be necessary for a sear host MP5 with its much higher round counts.

Yes, higher quality brass. My US military 7.62x51 brass doesn't deform into the flutes and just gets the carbon tracks as does some mil-surp from other countries. Commercial rounds and some lesser quality mil-surp brass (from foreign countries) does expand into the flutes.

 

[Rock Hardson]

[media]https://vimeo.com/21893870[/media]

 

[storage_man]

Yes, higher quality brass. My US military 7.62x51 brass doesn't deform into the flutes and just gets the carbon tracks as does some mil-surp from other countries. Commercial rounds and some lesser quality mil-surp brass (from foreign countries) does expand into the flutes.

Steve is correct, better brass is not likely to see any flute indentations. But most HK's due to their violent ejection of a spent cartridge, will impact the case opening. I have a neighbor @ the Big Sandy that has several G3's & clones. His spot is 40' away from mine spot and I still get incoming spent cartridges.

 

[knockonit]

lol, we were out shooting a few weeks ago, and dragonfly was shooting a cetme, it flew brass a good 40 ft at about 5 o clock from him, funny as all get out, the mp5 was awesome to watch, a steady stream of brass flying ever so lightly out and away.
me like me some mp5

 

[lew]

As a re-loader I dislike the chamber flutes left in fired cases from a roller lock G3 or PTR-91. They eventually flatten out but I still don't like them deforming the brass.

I reload all the brass that goes through my PTR. The flutes pose no issue to reloading and the brass functions fine in my other 7.62/.308 rifles.

 

[shooter444]

As a re-loader I dislike the chamber flutes left in fired cases from a roller lock G3 or PTR-91. They eventually flatten out but I still don't like them deforming the brass.

I reload all the brass that goes through my PTR. The flutes pose no issue to reloading and the brass functions fine in my other 7.62/.308 rifles.

Hey lew,... I agree with you that dented shoulders don't cause any function problems,... but, as Harrier stated, I DISLIKE the dents, as he does!

I prefer my cases having the ability to expand and seal. I have a tendency to question whether the sealing of gases isn't compromised, even in a small non problematic degree when case shoulders don't expand and conform 100% to the chamber.

I know, I know, it doesn't effect the reliability. I just didn't like it, and it was one of a MAJOR factors in my decision to trade it off.

To each their own.

 

[Steve_In_29]

Hey lew,... I agree with you that dented shoulders don't cause any function problems,... but, as Harrier stated, I DISLIKE the dents, as he does!

I prefer my cases having the ability to expand and seal. I have a tendency to question whether the sealing of gases isn't compromised, even in a small non problematic degree when case shoulders don't expand and conform 100% to the chamber.

I know, I know, it doesn't effect the reliability. I just didn't like it, and it was one of a MAJOR factors in my decision to trade it off.

To each their own.

Almost 8 MILLION HK G3's (not counting semi-auto HK91s/PTR91s/SAR8s/etc/etc) have been produced from 1959 until the present day and the rifle was used by 87 countries around the globe at one time or another. With G3s still being used in military service to this day. The HK PSG-1 that utilizes the same fluted chamber is one of the most accurate semi-auto sniper rifles in the world and is still produced by HK.

Any "compromise" is simply in your head. There is nothing to be concerned about with the design nor anything to cast aspersions on. Though whether or not you like the rifle is another matter and obviously your choice.

 

[shooter444]

Exactly,... I DIDN'T LIKE IT!!!

But, contrary to many nay-sayer's,... I ACTUALLY OWNED AND SHOT ONE FOR YEARS!!!

I don't give a shit how many were produced or what the overall reputation is,... I hated the bolt release ergonomic, I hated the trigger, I hated the mag release position / ergonomic, I hated the sights, I hated the scope clamp mount, and I hated the poor balance / weight ergonomics!!!

Basically, I believe there is not much to like with this weapon,... and, that because of that, it is basically a conflict weapon that is put in the hands of those that don't have any say about what they like or dislike,... period!!!

I don't care how many million people like the millions made,... I hated the one I owned and shot.

jmho

 

[delta6]

I was sorting thru some brass yesterday and when i quizzed a gent that was working with me on it, the markings on some of the 9mm, he said it was from an mp5, as it leaves the long straight markings on cases, interesting guess we will see after cleaning and polishing and if they reload ok, or ...................

i would like me some mp 5 though.
Rj

Streaked/carbon lined 9MM cases are from an MP5. Have reloaded 40K plus of those cases and reloaded them multiple times. They are fine, just load 'em and shoot 'em :dance:

 

[Steve_In_29]

Exactly,... I DIDN'T LIKE IT!!!

But, contrary to many nay-sayer's,... I ACTUALLY OWNED AND SHOT ONE FOR YEARS!!!

I don't give a s*** how many were produced or what the overall reputation is,... I hated the bolt release ergonomic, I hated the trigger, I hated the mag release position / ergonomic, I hated the sights, I hated the scope clamp mount, and I hated the poor balance / weight ergonomics!!!

Basically, I believe there is not much to like with this weapon,... and, that because of that, it is basically a conflict weapon that is put in the hands of those that don't have any say about what they like or dislike,... period!!!

I don't care how many million people like the millions made,... I hated the one I owned and shot.

jmho

Pretty heated response when I posted this in my reply...

"Though whether or not you like the rifle is another matter and obviously your choice."

. You apparently missed the fact that my reply was aimed at your insinuation that the fluted chamber might be something to be concerned about and not about your disliking the rifle.

As to owning one, good for you. I have owned THREE, with TWO currently in my safe.

 

[XJThrottle]

Anybody else picturing this?

 

[knockonit]

Anybody else picturing this?GOM.jpg

ROFL, that is funny for sure. :laughing-rolling: :laughing-rolling:

 

[Harrier]

Another point is that military ammo is usually shot once and left to lay... so the flutes don't matter like they do to a re-loader.
I chose the FAL over the G3 when I was looking to build a MBR. ALso IIRC, from what I've read, a roller lock is a lot harder to field strip and get back together without special tools... (not trying to start a which is better thread, just sayin).
As far as brass "quality", I suppose it's a matter of definition - in this case harder must be better and Lapua, Norma and Others liked by bench rest shooters would be at the bottom of the list.

 

[shooter444]

Oh, I don't know,.... REALLY ,... if harder brass will not dent like softer brass. I also DON"T KNOW if the denting of the brass isn't an integral function design of this delayed roller lock system. But my guess is,... it is,... therefore, I question any choice of brass to eliminate the dents. I have always felt if I need to reload it, and I don't like the condition of the fired brass, it is time for me to just move on. So, I did.

Personally, I believe it probably the most dependable, proven battle weapon system on earth,... just not my cup of tea!

 

[Steve_In_29]

Oh, I don't know,.... REALLY ,... if harder brass will not dent like softer brass. I also DON"T KNOW if the denting of the brass isn't an integral function design of this delayed roller lock system. But my guess is,... it is,... therefore, I question any choice of brass to eliminate the dents. I have always felt if I need to reload it, and I don't like the condition of the fired brass, it is time for me to just move on. So, I did.

Personally, I believe it probably the most dependable, proven battle weapon system on earth,... just not my cup of tea!

Well this is what you get when someone that has no real understanding about the design of a rifle tries to sound like they know more then they do. You might want to spend a bit of time over in the HK world at HKPro and get educated. They would get a chuckle at your assertion.

Whether or not the brass deforms into the flutes is solely a function of the relative softness of the brass and NOT a function the rifle depends on for proper functioning. Flutes are for extraction only and have no bearing on how the rifle's action cycles.

As someone that claims to be a reloader your comment above seems strangely ignorant of the fact that not all brass is created equal in the ammunition world.

As I stated, commercial and some lesser foreign mil-surp brass does flow into the flutes while American military rounds and even more telling, German NATO spec ammo does not deform. You can rest assured that if the rifle was designed to require deformation for proper operation that those anal-retentive Germans would have made darn sure their military rounds did just that in their standard issue combat rifle. After all they couldn't afford even the faintest possibility of malfunctions when they were facing off against the Soviet hordes during the Cold War with the fate of free Germany on the line.

 

[Ranger1]

Junk the cases. They are shit

 

[shooter444]

Well this is what you get when someone that has no real understanding about the design of a rifle tries to sound like they know more then they do. You might want to spend a bit of time over in the HK world at HKPro and get educated. They would get a chuckle at your assertion.

[glow=red]Well, I only owned, loaded and shot a PTR91 for about four years,.., I prefer FIRST HAND EXPERIENCE rather than expressing opinions received on a gun site.[/glow]

Whether or not the brass deforms into the flutes is solely a function of the relative softness of the brass and NOT a function the rifle depends on for proper functioning. Flutes are for extraction only and have no bearing on how the rifle's action cycles.

[glow=red]The above statement is why I have learned not to believe one hypocritical word you write! "EXTRACTION" is a FUNCTION of a RIFLE'S ACTION CYCLE![/glow]

As someone that claims to be a reloader your comment above seems strangely ignorant of the fact that not all brass is created equal in the ammunition world.

[glow=red]I have reloaded Remington, Federal/Lake City, Winchester, Hornady, Prvi Partizan, Fiocchi, brass, and a few others I can't remember . All fuctioned perfectly,... and all had flute dented results. Never had a brass case come out undented,... that is my first hand , real life, experience.[/glow]

As I stated, commercial and some lesser foreign mil-surp brass does flow into the flutes while American military rounds and even more telling, German NATO spec ammo does not deform. You can rest assured that if the rifle was designed to require deformation for proper operation that those anal-retentive Germans would have made darn sure their military rounds did just that in their standard issue combat rifle. After all they couldn't afford even the faintest possibility of malfunctions when they were facing off against the Soviet hordes during the Cold War with the fate of free Germany on the line.

[glow=red]As I posted,...[/glow]

"shooter444 wrote: ↑February 16th, 2019, 6:52 am
Oh, I don't know,.... REALLY ,... if harder brass will not dent like softer brass. I also DON'T KNOW if the denting of the brass isn't an integral function design of this delayed roller lock system. But my guess is,... it is,... therefore, I question any choice of brass to eliminate the dents. I have always felt if I need to reload it, and I don't like the condition of the fired brass, it is time for me to just move on. So, I did.

Personally, I believe it probably the most dependable, proven battle weapon system on earth,... just not my cup of tea!"

[glow=red]..., which contradicts your claim I don't know there are brass of different hardness,... and, until I communicate with a professional HK tech,... all your secondhand claims,... mean absolutely nothing to me.

Have a nice day.[/glow]