Development of the 1911

[smithers599]

Fascinatin'!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vgOicEVA4u8

 

[xerts1191]

Great invention I’d say!

 

[was21]

Was watching this thread to see how long before some actual ‘guntalk’ on this forum...

I’ve got examples of three of the predecessors to the 1911. Have to say the machining/fitment on those are better than some of today’s manufacturing.

I’ll see if I can post up some pics... the double link stuff is a cool design.
JBM knew what he was doing( most of the time) vs guys these days designing up on cad/cam and then still not getting it right.LOL

 

[Eddy1]

Was watching this thread to see how long before some actual ‘guntalk’ on this forum...

I’ve got examples of three of the predecessors to the 1911. Have to say the machining/fitment on those are better than some of today’s manufacturing.

I’ll see if I can post up some pics... the double link stuff is a cool design.

JBM knew what he was doing( most of the time) vs guys these days designing up on cad/cam and then still not getting it right.LOL

Interesting. My grandfather collects civil war era muskets and he’s always said the originals are much better than the newer replicas and I wonder why that is. I’d think the steel used nowadays is stronger and the machining more precise but it doesn’t seem to be the case.

 

[was21]

JBM designs were made in an era of hand fitting. Didn’t respond well to CNC transition/drop in parts.
On the other hand....
Glocks were designed to be CNC and don’t respond well to hand fitting!
Just observation of 40 years of working on stuff.

Young guys don’t seem to understand this.

 

[QuangTri]

I’ve got examples of three of the predecessors to the 1911. Have to say the machining/fitment on those are better than some of today’s manufacturing.

yeah, my wife inherited a 1908 Colt 380 Hammerless. Her mother had just left it in a box for many years.

Did some digging to find out how to do a complete disassembly for thorough cleaning. No problem, but then.

Assembly was a total nightmare. What online help i could find was of little to no use. Some steps were insanity provoking. Tiny little parts that refused to stay in position for the other tiny parts to fit in.

That old Mose simplified it so much in the 1911 shows he knew what not to repeat. The fitment of those part on the 1908 has to be felt to be believed. It is a jewel of a gun. It will never be torn down completely again, just a good spraydown with cleaner and lube. Barrel is easy for routine at least.

 

[QuangTri]

I’ve got examples of three of the predecessors to the 1911. Have to say the machining/fitment on those are better than some of today’s manufacturing.

Yeah, my wife inherited a 1908 Colt 380 Hammerless. Nickel plated, including sights, believe it or not. Talk about useless. Her mother had just left it in a box for many years. I knew nothing about it, but do know the 1911 well.

Did some digging to find out how to do a complete disassembly for thorough cleaning. No problem, but then I found out it is nothing like a 1911 internally.

Assembly was a total nightmare. What online help i could find was of little to no use. Some steps were insanity provoking. Tiny little parts that refused to stay in position for the other tiny parts to fit in.

That old Mose simplified it so much in the 1911 shows he knew what not to repeat. The fitment of those part on the 1908 has to be felt to be believed. It is a jewel of a gun. It will never be torn down completely again, just a good spraydown with cleaner and lube. Barrel is easy for routine at least.

 

[was21]

on the pocket hammerless!
I lost count of the ones that came in to the shop loose in a box.
Easy to disassemble but a bitch to put back together.

Old joke .... at the colt factory. manager comes up to a 1911 assembler and says “ you’re getting a big raise! .... putting you on the 1903 assembly line” . Guy replies.... “ I QUIT!”

Special jigs at the factory to hold things in place for assembly... a bitch even with them.

 

[smithers599]

Jason Burton (Heirloom Precision) has a different take. (I took a two-hour class from him a couple of years ago.) According to him, there are two ways to copy a design: follow the blueprints, or reverse-engineer by measuring an existing gun. He says some companies, in an effort to get as close as possible to original specs, got their measurements from old GI guns, which by that time were worn out and out of spec. That is why, says he, some companies' pin holes are out of spec by a couple of thousandths, and not lined up. IIRC, he specifically cited ParaOrdnance.

So, assuming you got the specs from blueprints, not aftermarket measurements, there is no reason CNCs could not produce consistently great 1911s. I think (but am not certain) that Springfield Armory has done this.

ETA: I see that Wilson Combat makes their frames and slides on CNC machinery, so I guess 1911s and CNC do go together. https://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/a-look-inside-wilson-combats-manufacturing-shop/

Over in the CNC building, brand new CNC machines are whirring away making the slides and frames for each order. In addition to pistol parts, these machines also turn out the receivers for their AR-15 and AR-10 line of rifles, and there’s quite a few of them working on guns in all stages of completion.

According to the ATF, as soon as the 1911 frame has the rails and pin holes milled into it the part officially becomes a firearm. With WC, they’ve configured their CNC machine to serialize each frame in the same program that cuts those last few operations.

 

[was21]

Take 20 working Colt mfg 1911’s and detail strip them all and throw all the parts in one box. Stir . Now start pulling parts out and build those 20 guns .....Guaranteed that some parts won’t work well with others and need some fitting . Even the latest greatest Staccato’s and Wilson’s aren’t always ‘drop-in’ parts guns.

Now do the same with designs that were made to be LEGO’s.... Glock/ M&P/HK ... all 20 will go right together and function.

Have done the Glockand M&P test in their armorers courses- all worked.... did a Colt (only5 guns) test on my own a few years ago...2worked/3 needed some parts shuffling. FWIW

 

[smithers599]

Hmmm. I think I will take five of my Wilsons and give that a try...

 

[was21]

LMK

I do know my 2 Wilson’s from 1979 don’t swap parts. LOL
These were from when he was building pistols on his kitchen table!