Bill of Sale

[TacMedic]

I did a search and saw that this is been discussed some in different forums or different specific postings, but I have my opinion in regards to a bill of sale and wanted to hear others. With that, here is my opinion.

Honestly, when I see an add requesting a “signed bill of sale”... I move on. A firearm is a piece of property and I see no need to do that. I do my due diligence and ask to see an AZ DL and CCW (if they have it) and ask them if they can legally own a firearm in Arizona (they could lie just like on the government form) No pictures of their stuff or “tracking” by me. I know a concern is if the gun later comes up used in a crime or something...but really the bill of sell does not really add any protection. It’s just a feel good measure from my perspective. If you really want no part of it, sell your gun on consignment at an FFL gun shop.

This comes from someone that recently spoke with the ATF in regards to a shotgun I had purchased then sold a year or so later. After reportedly “multiple sales” it was seized after being sawed off and converted to an illegal firearm. As I was the original owner, they started their tracking with me to try and investigate the history of the gun and who had done it. I informed them of my involvement with it, the little data I had on the person that bought it from my interactions. That was the end of it...it was sold and was factory when I sold it. Done and done.

A bill of sale may have provided a name (that could also be fake).

Anyway no skin off my nose if someone wants the feel good measure, I just won’t buy from them. I just wondered if there is actually a good argument for holding a bill of sale other then “protection”.

Thoughts or legal opinions from our vast internet lawyers?

 

[digger2]

I would think that protection from liability is the main reason and best there is. Whether someone chooses to lie is up to them, but as you have seen their id and ccw if available what can they lie about?

 

[Harrier]

The only time I want to copy their ID #'s is if the gun was bought on a 4473 in my name, otherwise I do as you do, check that they are resident, of legal age, allowed to own a gun and then forget it all by the time I get home.
If I get a gut feeling they are a lowlife criminal, or if they praise allah akbar I just break off and go home with my piece.

 

[shooter444]

I don't really have any BIG problems with all the paranoia expressed by sellers,... except one!

When a seller lists all their fantasy requirements, to be verified by forged documents , if dealing with criminal,... and, they add to that list how they are following ALL AZ LAWS,... that really pisses off!!!

THERE ARE NO ARIZONA LAWS REQUIRING ANY DOCUMENTATION FOR A FIREARM SALE,... PERIOD!!!

Any seller that adds that to his list of required documentation, in his sale,... doesn't have a clue what he/she is talking about, and, I avoid such idiots like the plague!

There,... that's my opinion!

 

[smithers599]

Same here. If somebody wants to require a bill of sale, that's their business. Free country. But I will not buy from them. Likewise, if somebody wants to verify that I am an Arizona resident and have a CCW, I will show them drivers license and permit -- but I will cover the name and address. My identity is none of their business, and I don't care about theirs. If they don't want my money, that's fine with me. Free country. There is no gun that I am desperate to buy.

 

[Razai]

What Smithers599 said. Will not be asked for or complied with. Period

 

[AZ Husker]

I've actually had two guys want to take a photo of my driver's license during a legal private sale. I do flash it and my CCW but cover up personal info. If you're that worried, snap a picture of their license plate.

 

[Worldwatcher]

I pass them by as well. I do it as I don’t want my info in someone else’s records. Someone else breaks into their home and finds my address listed for having purchased a gun from them? No thx. Not paranoid, it is just not necessary. I have a lot of friends that are cops and lawyers and they all say to not sign a bill of sale or require one. If I lost someones info and it resulted in a loss or bodily harm to them I could be liable in civil court as well. So the only thing a bill of sale gets anyone is a liability not protection.

 

[Solar_Empire]

I pass on them too. I've missed out on a few purchases but nothing I won't find again or can't live without. If they want one they can have one, but not from me. If you're that paranoid, take the loss and trade it in to a shop.

 

[H Y P H Y]

I explain to them while I'm not comfortable with doing a bill of sale or letting them inspect my ID due to them having my personal information, I offer to complete the transaction at a FFL or law enforcement department. If it's a must to show AZ ID, I will make sure I cover up all info besides my picture. Sorry, but I'm not providing information such as my D.O.B., address, real name, drivers license #. Before I was 20 I had someone (don't know who) illegally use my information before. I suspect it may have been due to my carelessness of personal information at the time (such as throwing away spam mail.) Not going through that whole identity / credit theft process again. Nope. I'll pass on the firearm purchase if I have to expose my personal information.

 

[Roneyj]

I too pass on ads with bill of sale required. In all of my trading I have only had one person ask to take a picture of my drivers license. When I said only if I can take a picture of yours and he changed his mind.

 

[Suck My Glock]

Asking for that s**t is just pure bad manners and the sign of California sickness. F**k those guys.

 

[TacMedic]

Asking for that s**t is just pure bad manners and the sign of California sickness. F**k those guys.

How do you really feel?

 

[sonofbp]

It's almost as bad as people listing the age 21 requirement on pistol sales...

 

[Doc Holliday]

If you're that worried, snap a picture of their license plate.

Be careful about suggesting that one, there are some who get their thong panties in a bunch when it comes to that, even though their license plate is out there all day long for everyone to see.

 

[Ballistic Therapy]

I always get a bill of sale and it must contain

Copy of drivers license
Copy of birth certificate
Social security number
Bank account , routing number , pin number
Valid credit card and CVV number , preferably Visa
Paypal address and password
Social media passwords
Mothers maiden name
Fathers middle name
City you where born in
Home address
Phone number
Picture of buyer or seller
Picture of license plate
Credit check

This is for my protection only.

 

[Flash]

I always get a bill of sale and it must contain

Copy of drivers license
Copy of birth certificate
Social security number
Bank account , routing number , pin number
Valid credit card and CVV number , preferably Visa
Paypal address and password
Social media passwords
Mothers maiden name
Fathers middle name
City you where born in
Home address
Phone number
Picture of buyer or seller
Picture of license plate
Credit check

This is for my protection only.

I want all of that, plus I want 6 people who will sign an affidavit that you are of sound mind.

 

[Harrier]

I guess I'm the only one that didn't go along with the herd...

I said that if I was on the 4473 as the original buyer, I wanted to copy an ID #... that may have been a poor choice of words, as I didn't mean I wanted to photo their ID, I just want to copy down their name and DL#, which I might keep in an encrypted file anonymously tucked away on the computer... or I might toss in the trash as they know I have a trace-back. I don't care where they live, as long as the ID is of the same state I live in, (for handguns... long guns technically can be sold to residents of neighboring states but I wouldn't want to pay to be the test case).

I want some assurance if in the future, I get a knock on the door because my name came up in a crime trace, then I can point them down the road... I ain't gonna cover your a** and pay to clear myself if you or someone you flipped the piece to screws up. I don't know you, I don't wanna know you and I sure as he** don't want to take a fall for you.

I don't often sell any of my papered guns so this is not something I commonly do, but if I do sell a registered gun then I will want to cover my butt and that is the primary reason.

There may not be any AZ documentation requirement but there are Federal requirements about sales to non-residents, age restrictions and felony/DV status. No written answers are required but reasonable doubt on the sellers part is. Now if you want to ignore asking and sell to just anyone, you are risking getting caught in an ATF sting. If that is something you want to avoid, then asking the question gives you some plausible deniability even if they lie...at least you asked, so who cares.

Most of the time a FTF sale is done at a gun-show by chance meeting anyway, so only a DL flash is required to help mitigate the possible gun-show sting..
If a sale is done through a forum, such as this one, there is probably enough electronic data saved to show dates trace IP's, but it doesn't hurt to ask for a flash.

I understand the buyers concerns too, as I have bought many private party guns over the years... the main concern is 'what if it is stolen or used in a crime' and 'what if some cop runs the # and it comes back on me?' It may not have been the guy you bought it from, but maybe 2 guys removed that tainted the merch... how you gonna talk you way outta that one?

I agree with what all of you have said - a gun is just like a TV and should be considered as private property in the same vein, but the reality is they are not. No matter what you feel, if you get caught up in legal red tape, your gonna get ink on ya. These days both buyer and seller have to be careful. Some deals are best to walk away from and sometimes you just need that extra assurance you can slip out of the knot. It ain't about the money...

Remember the guy who just sold some ammo to the LV shooter?
He got screwed anyway.

 

[knockonit]

talk about a subject thats been beat to death, argh

 

[samnev]

In all my dealings with buying and selling I've only had 1person ask fo a BOS. I didn't do business with him.