Will this organization die?

http://www.azcdl.org - The Arizona Citizens Defense League (AzCDL) is an IRC 501(c)(4) non-profit, all volunteer, non-partisan grassroots organization dedicated to the principles contained in Article II, Section 2 of the Arizona Constitution that "All political power is inherent in the people, and governments derive their just powers from the consent of the governed, and are established to protect and maintain individual rights." The rights of self-defense and bearing arms are the foundation for all other rights. Our freedom of speech, our freedom from unreasonable searches, our rights against self-incrimination, our right to bear arms, all of our fundamental rights only exist because we stand firmly resolved to preserve them. The AzCDL exists to strengthen that resolve.
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Re: Will this organization die?

#31

Post by admin »

I'm glad to see the enthusiasm here, but there are going to be some time-outs dished out if you guys don't keep it civil and understand that we're all on the same team here.


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kenpoprofessor
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Re: Will this organization die?

#32

Post by kenpoprofessor »

admin wrote: January 30th, 2023, 11:55 pm I'm glad to see the enthusiasm here, but there are going to be some time-outs dished out if you guys don't keep it civil and understand that we're all on the same team here.
Clearly we are not, as evidenced by this thread.

Have a great, gun carryin', Kenpo day

Clyde
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Re: Will this organization die?

#33

Post by DonnyFox »

A big reason why AZ CDL is dying is quite literally because their membership refuses to shift from the old generation to the new one. A big part of that comes and stems from a lot of the lack of understanding or blatant pushing away of new media, and I don't think them having Dave Grossman, a guy who is reviled on both sides of the aisle did them any favors.
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Re: Will this organization die?

#34

Post by YNOTAZ »

DonnyFox wrote: January 31st, 2023, 5:38 am A big reason why AZ CDL is dying is quite literally because their membership refuses to shift from the old generation to the new one. A big part of that comes and stems from a lot of the lack of understanding or blatant pushing away of new media, and I don't think them having Dave Grossman, a guy who is reviled on both sides of the aisle did them any favors.
Have you ever thought that maybe the "old generation" doesn't know how to use and control new media and maybe the "old generation" is trying to figure out how to attract a new "generation".

Seems to me you're watching through the window from the outside and making a lot of assumptions about what's being discussed at the meetings. If you are a "new media" hot-shot how about joining and volunteering to give a presence on new media?

Maybe, rather than blaming the "old generation", if you know the problem, as you indicate, and you know a solution, as you also indicate, how about offering help rather pointing fingers. Go back to the first post in this thread, it's an AZCDL member asking the question "Will you step up?" WELL?
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Re: Will this organization die?

#35

Post by DonnyFox »

I was one of the ten people who tried to make a difference in their social media presence, but their goals were keeping in their older membership at the cost of their older membership. The primary issue lies in the older membership is dying off, no one wants to hear people speaking truth to power, and would rather hand wave issues away rather than actually take care of them. It's why anyone who wanted to care and put their best effort in felt no love for it, and decided to spread the 2A message their own way through educating friends and family who are reluctant, but willing to get into firearms.

This attitude is why people looking in don't want firearms, they see the chest thumping insanity that is people like Grossman and their "sheepdog protecting the sheep" mentality and they either tune out because it's mean to call people sheep or they think everyone who likes guns is a psycho vigilante that relishes in the idea of using them.

Is this the idea that should be pushed vs treating firearms as tools to protect you and yours?
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Re: Will this organization die?

#36

Post by YNOTAZ »

DonnyFox wrote: January 31st, 2023, 7:41 am The primary issue lies in the older membership is dying off, no one wants to hear people speaking truth to power.

people like Grossman
You are right the older folks are dying off but it seems really hard to get younger folks in, even to join much less do something. I don't know which Grossman you're talking about or what run-in you had with him but, just like Thom asked in the opening post AZCDL can use some vitality, and it certainly doesn't need to be called a stupid organization by a young chest thumper like it was a bit earlier.

If you have something to offer as help, there are several folks here that can get you in touch with AZCDL board members and will help push good ideas.

Just keep in mind, AZCDL is not a protest organizer it promotes gun laws and opposes gun laws through the legislature. Many of its members have participated in demonstrations at the capital but that is not the organization's focus.
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Re: Will this organization die?

#37

Post by kenpoprofessor »

The real problem is, The People. Most gun "owners", probably close to 80%, don' know dick about their gun, the safety concerning it, or the laws about it. Worse, they are apathetic to their own ignorance. I've asked hundreds of folks if they "owned guns", most said yes, but could usually only name caliber, and sometimes brand, and they were quite content to have even that level of knowledge. They just don't care anymore, life is easy, why should they. They'll do what their phone tells them to do, period.

Have a great, gun carryin', Kenpo day

Clyde
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Re: Will this organization die?

#38

Post by delta6 »

kenpoprofessor wrote: January 31st, 2023, 2:17 pm The real problem is, The People. Most gun "owners", probably close to 80%, don' know dick about their gun, the safety concerning it, or the laws about it. Worse, they are apathetic to their own ignorance. I've asked hundreds of folks if they "owned guns", most said yes, but could usually only name caliber, and sometimes brand, and they were quite content to have even that level of knowledge. They just don't care anymore, life is easy, why should they. They'll do what their phone tells them to do, period.

Have a great, gun carryin', Kenpo day

Clyde
So, here's a thought.....
If they do not know something...Educate them..

Don’t belittle them.

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Re: Will this organization die?

#39

Post by AZ_Five56 »

delta6 wrote: January 31st, 2023, 2:44 pm
kenpoprofessor wrote: January 31st, 2023, 2:17 pm The real problem is, The People. Most gun "owners", probably close to 80%, don' know dick about their gun, the safety concerning it, or the laws about it. Worse, they are apathetic to their own ignorance. I've asked hundreds of folks if they "owned guns", most said yes, but could usually only name caliber, and sometimes brand, and they were quite content to have even that level of knowledge. They just don't care anymore, life is easy, why should they. They'll do what their phone tells them to do, period.

Have a great, gun carryin', Kenpo day

Clyde
So, here's a thought.....
If they do not know something...Educate them..

Don’t belittle them.

Agreed. If they're a gun owner already, I feel like they're most of the way there. We need to be evangelists of the 2nd Amendment and to know all the talking points of our gun gospel better than anyone so that we can win these people over. This also means we have to be charismatic rather than a bunch of grouchy d*ckheads.
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Re: Will this organization die?

#40

Post by Jack Dupp »

delta6 wrote: January 31st, 2023, 2:44 pm
kenpoprofessor wrote: January 31st, 2023, 2:17 pm The real problem is, The People. Most gun "owners", probably close to 80%, don' know dick about their gun, the safety concerning it, or the laws about it. Worse, they are apathetic to their own ignorance. I've asked hundreds of folks if they "owned guns", most said yes, but could usually only name caliber, and sometimes brand, and they were quite content to have even that level of knowledge. They just don't care anymore, life is easy, why should they. They'll do what their phone tells them to do, period.

Have a great, gun carryin', Kenpo day

Clyde
So, here's a thought.....
If they do not know something...Educate them..

Don’t belittle them.

Big +1, Gil.

I see a major reason why more don't join AZCDL is because the members usually try to shame gun owners to join instead of enumerating the positives on why they should join.

A lot like how competition shooters (like ceramic_god and sinistral rifleman several years back) that shot the ACTS match in Tucson belittled non-competitor enthusiasts, calling them "dirtshooters". They'd pat themselves on the back, crowing about how by taking training classes and shooting comps, they were the REAL 2nd Amendment supporters, actually doing something to further the 2A cause. While the rest of us were a bunch of slack-jawed yokels that could barely do more than shoot dirt mounds and drool in a cup.
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Re: Will this organization die?

#41

Post by Gunslinger808 »

You guys got cups?
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Re: Will this organization die?

#42

Post by delta6 »

Gunslinger808 wrote: January 31st, 2023, 3:29 pm You guys got cups?
PrIceless...

Friggin PRICELESS... :clap:
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Re: Will this organization die?

#43

Post by Noshoot »

The whole dirtshooter thing was hilarious.
I’m a dirtshooter and a competitor. When I look down the list of USPSA numbers on a Practiscore match I see that many of the “holier than thou” types didn’t enter into USPSA until 10-15yrs after I did….
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Re: Will this organization die?

#44

Post by Gunslinger808 »

Any further personal attacks will result in time outs or a ban.
Discussion and debate are fine, but name calling and insults are done.
There will be no further warnings.
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Re: Will this organization die?

#45

Post by paulgt2164 »

kenpoprofessor wrote: January 31st, 2023, 2:17 pm The real problem is, The People. Most gun "owners", probably close to 80%, don' know dick about their gun, the safety concerning it, or the laws about it. Worse, they are apathetic to their own ignorance. I've asked hundreds of folks if they "owned guns", most said yes, but could usually only name caliber, and sometimes brand, and they were quite content to have even that level of knowledge. They just don't care anymore, life is easy, why should they. They'll do what their phone tells them to do, period.

Have a great, gun carryin', Kenpo day

Clyde

What does gun knowledge have to do with anything in this thread?

Hate to break it to you, but you don't have to know a lot about guns, or even own them to be a 2A supporter / activist / enthusiast. I know quite a few people who don't own a firearm but make the effort to engage their elected officials, donate to good 2A orgs, and attend protest / marches. I also know quite a few people who can't tell you a ton about their firearms but would probably embarrass you with their abilities to wield the firearms they do own.

Not being a walking encyclopedia of the firearms word doesn't mean someone can't/isn't a supporter in our rights. There is zero functional difference between someone who knows "I have a Sig 9mm" and someone who knows "I have a Sig Elite VTAC in 9mm w/ Novak sights and a Wilson grip frame."

Knowing a ton about firearms isn't a prerequisite to supporting the 2A. I would rather have 100 people that don't own/know guns but will be involved in supporting the 2A then 1000000 knowledgeable gun owners who think sending money off to the NRA is the only thing they should be doing.

*Post edited to appease the mods.
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