Guy who made ammo for Vegas shooter pleads guilty.

[YNOTAZ]

Considering it is your list, I accept my inclusion as a position of honor.

Snowflakes melt even faster on the Internet so I hope you can sustain your list and protect your delicate feelings.

[Crippledtrigger]

Theaccountant is destined for addition to the snowflake ignore list.

I pointed out that your butt buddy is an idiot and now I'm a snowflake? Makes sense.

(Jedi mind trick voice on)
You're not the snowflake he was talking about.
(Jedi mind trick voice off)

[delta6]

Wow.. Didn't take long for this thread to go sideways... Whether someone/anyone thinks this guy is a scapegoat or the government is covering up something and regardless whether we agree with this prosecution, he broke the law. He is no friend of the firearms community. Haig obviously knew better, but it appears greed got in his way.

The issue that was the elephant in the room for him was the manufacture and sale of the .308/7.62 AP (not API or APIT or tracer) ammunition. Selling ammunition without a license is a much lower level crime and most that are caught, are just given a slap on the hand.

The manufacture and "sale" of AP ammo (M855 is not AP ammo) is illegal (Wrong as it may seem, it's the law). It is plainly spelled out in the Regs. The penalty is up to 10 years in jail. Taking the plea was probably the best decision to save him from a long jail sentence. They had tool marks from his equipment on the ammo, his fingerprints and his DNA on the ammunition. If this went to trial, this guy was gunna be toast and his attorney probably realized it. His only alternative was to take a plea agreement.

Short version of the regulations:

§ 478.37 Manufacture, importation and sale of armor piercing ammunition.
No person shall manufacture or import, and no manufacturer or importer shall sell or deliver, armor piercing ammunition, except:
1. a.The manufacture or importation, or the sale or delivery by any manufacturer or importer, of armor piercing ammunition for the use of the United States or any department or agency thereof or any State or any department, agency or political subdivision thereof;
2. b.The manufacture, or the sale or delivery by a manufacturer or importer, of armor piercing ammunition for the purpose of exportation; or
3. c.The sale or delivery by a manufacturer or importer of armor piercing ammunition for the purposes of testing or experimentation as authorized by the Director under the provisions of § 478.149.

ARMOR-PIERCING AMMUNITION
Federal law prohibits the manufacture, importation, sale, or delivery of armor-piercing ammunition, with very limited exceptions.15 Licensed dealers are prohibited from “willfully” transferring armor-piercing ammunition.16 Federally licensed dealers, to the extent they may transfer armor-piercing ammunition, must keep a record of any transfer. 18 U.S.C. § 922(b)(5).

[redj]

Theaccountant is destined for addition to the snowflake ignore list.

I pointed out that your butt buddy is an idiot and now I'm a snowflake? Makes sense.

This was not a shot at you.
leverman (aka shooter444 ) thinks it makes his BS more relevant when he puts you on his list if you disagree with or prove him wrong.

[smithers599]

The issue that was the elephant in the room for him was the manufacture and sale of the .308/7.62 AP (not API or APIT or tracer) ammunition. Selling ammunition without a license is a much lower level crime and most that are caught, are just given a slap on the hand.

The manufacture and "sale" of AP ammo (M855 is not AP ammo) is illegal (Wrong as it may seem, it's the law). It is plainly spelled out in the Regs. The penalty is up to 10 years in jail. Taking the plea was probably the best decision to save him from a long jail sentence. They had tool marks from his equipment on the ammo, his fingerprints and his DNA on the ammunition. If this went to trial, this guy was gunna be toast and his attorney probably realized it. His only alternative was to take a plea agreement.

Short version of the regulations:

§ 478.37 Manufacture, importation and sale of armor piercing ammunition.
No person shall manufacture or import, and no manufacturer or importer shall sell or deliver, armor piercing ammunition, except:
1. a.The manufacture or importation, or the sale or delivery by any manufacturer or importer, of armor piercing ammunition for the use of the United States or any department or agency thereof or any State or any department, agency or political subdivision thereof;
2. b.The manufacture, or the sale or delivery by a manufacturer or importer, of armor piercing ammunition for the purpose of exportation; or
3. c.The sale or delivery by a manufacturer or importer of armor piercing ammunition for the purposes of testing or experimentation as authorized by the Director under the provisions of § 478.149.

ARMOR-PIERCING AMMUNITION
Federal law prohibits the manufacture, importation, sale, or delivery of armor-piercing ammunition, with very limited exceptions.15 Licensed dealers are prohibited from “willfully” transferring armor-piercing ammunition.16 Federally licensed dealers, to the extent they may transfer armor-piercing ammunition, must keep a record of any transfer. 18 U.S.C. § 922(b)(5).

However, in Sec. 921, Definitions, I find:

(B)The term “armor piercing ammunition” means—
(i)a projectile or projectile core which may be used in a handgun and which is constructed entirely (excluding the presence of traces of other substances) from one or a combination of tungsten alloys, steel, iron, brass, bronze, beryllium copper, or depleted uranium; or
(ii)a full jacketed projectile larger than .22 caliber designed and intended for use in a handgun and whose jacket has a weight of more than 25 percent of the total weight of the projectile.

[Flash]

Yeah, but they make .223 "handguns"

[delta6]

However, in Sec. 921, Definitions, I find:

(B)The term “armor piercing ammunition” means—
(i)a projectile or projectile core which may be used in a handgun and which is constructed entirely (excluding the presence of traces of other substances) from one or a combination of tungsten alloys, steel, iron, brass, bronze, beryllium copper, or depleted uranium; or
(ii)a full jacketed projectile larger than .22 caliber designed and intended for use in a handgun and whose jacket has a weight of more than 25 percent of the total weight of the projectile.

Good one... but Haig had already stipulated that it was AP ammunition...,
and with the advent of a .308/7.62 pistol, that was the nail in the coffin of .308/7.62 ammunition not used in a "handgun".

[delta6]

Yeah, but they make .223 "handguns"

Correct.. another good one

The invention of .223/5.56 pistol (handgun) was the wedge that Obama tried to use to ban M855 ammunition. Thankfully, he failed, but I'm sure with the Democratic ruling class in DC, has not forgotten.

[cool arrow]

I just gotta laugh at all the petty bickering, my high school kids have graduated, so now I have this board to entertain me with the hijinks...

[87jeep]

Hit that one on the head, cool arrow.

[shooter444]

Hmmm,... "petty bickering",.... what petty bickering,... I don't see any petty bickering?

[YNOTAZ]

Ya know, after this thread, Sh*tter444's feeling will be hurt so bad that his ignore list will grow to several pages.

Back on topic. What Haig did was illegal as has been amply pointed out. He had to enter a plea agreement or get crushed under the massive weight of the Fed with the inexhaustible supply of our tax dollars funding their prosecution.

[delta6]

Ya know, after this thread, Sh*tter444's feeling will be hurt so bad that his ignore list will grow to several pages.

Back on topic. What Haig did was illegal as has been amply pointed out. He had to enter a plea agreement or get crushed under the massive weight of the Fed with the inexhaustible supply of our tax dollars funding their prosecution.

No.. he plead because he was guilty and he didn't want 10 years in the big house. This was not a case of "Massive weight of the Fed". It is pretty cut and dried. He admitted he did it, had his fingerprints and DNA. I know a DNA gal that has some incite in this and she said this guy couldn't walk if Jesus was his attorney. He should be thanking the God's that there is something called "a plea agreement".

[TheAccountant]

Wow.. Didn't take long for this thread to go sideways... Whether someone/anyone thinks this guy is a scapegoat or the government is covering up something and regardless whether we agree with this prosecution, he broke the law. He is no friend of the firearms community. Haig obviously knew better, but it appears greed got in his way.

The issue that was the elephant in the room for him was the manufacture and sale of the .308/7.62 AP (not API or APIT or tracer) ammunition. Selling ammunition without a license is a much lower level crime and most that are caught, are just given a slap on the hand.

The manufacture and "sale" of AP ammo (M855 is not AP ammo) is illegal (Wrong as it may seem, it's the law). It is plainly spelled out in the Regs. The penalty is up to 10 years in jail. Taking the plea was probably the best decision to save him from a long jail sentence. They had tool marks from his equipment on the ammo, his fingerprints and his DNA on the ammunition. If this went to trial, this guy was gunna be toast and his attorney probably realized it. His only alternative was to take a plea agreement.

Short version of the regulations:

§ 478.37 Manufacture, importation and sale of armor piercing ammunition.
No person shall manufacture or import, and no manufacturer or importer shall sell or deliver, armor piercing ammunition, except:
1. a.The manufacture or importation, or the sale or delivery by any manufacturer or importer, of armor piercing ammunition for the use of the United States or any department or agency thereof or any State or any department, agency or political subdivision thereof;
2. b.The manufacture, or the sale or delivery by a manufacturer or importer, of armor piercing ammunition for the purpose of exportation; or
3. c.The sale or delivery by a manufacturer or importer of armor piercing ammunition for the purposes of testing or experimentation as authorized by the Director under the provisions of § 478.149.

ARMOR-PIERCING AMMUNITION
Federal law prohibits the manufacture, importation, sale, or delivery of armor-piercing ammunition, with very limited exceptions.15 Licensed dealers are prohibited from “willfully” transferring armor-piercing ammunition.16 Federally licensed dealers, to the extent they may transfer armor-piercing ammunition, must keep a record of any transfer. 18 U.S.C. § 922(b)(5).

He was indicted on 18 USC 922(a)(1)(B) for manufacturing/selling ammunition without a license. He was looking at 5 years. Regulations aren't laws.

[YNOTAZ]

Problem is 5 years is the charge he pled to.

If you read the complaint in the link I gave, what they charged him with:

USC 922.A2 - 10 years
USC 924.A1D - 5 years
USC 371 defraud the government, who the hell knows haw many years.

He could have had Great grandchildren before he got out had he not pled the way he did.