Guy who made ammo for Vegas shooter pleads guilty.

[knockonit]

at this point it appears all arguments are moot as this sucka is headed to the big house, the hootscow, the gubermint housing with cage,

and tomorrow will spawn a new item to discuss, and or argue and or whine over, gotta love America, life just goes on no matter what.

[TheAccountant]

Problem is 5 years is the charge he pled to.

If you read the complaint in the link I gave, what they charged him with:

USC 922.A2 - 10 years
USC 924.A1D - 5 years
USC 371 defraud the government, who the hell knows haw many years.

He could have had Great grandchildren before he got out had he not pled the way he did.

I don't see any link from you, but the actual indictment is below. He was only charged with 922(a)(1)(B). 924 is a penalty section. He was looking at 5 years. The plea is open up to 2 years.

https://www.documentcloud.org/documents ... -Haig.html

[YNOTAZ]

That was six months after the original charges in February and could have resulted from some initial plea bargaining.

The charging document from February lists charges on page 1 and item #21 (Conclusion). The three charges I mentioned, included conspiracy. The conspiracy could have included his buddy from the gun show. The link was in my earlier post, see below.

[quote=YNOTAZ post_id=33186 time=1574269691 user_id=403]
It is not that APITs are implicitly illegal it is that Haig manufactured them without a license. He had an Internet web site selling ammo and made sales at gun shows. The shooter met him at 2 gun shows, one in Vegas and one in Phoenix. That means he had a business selling ammo.

The FBI lab found tool marks on at least 2 of the rounds recovered in LV that had Haig's fingerprints on them and tool marks matching his reloading equipment. That mans he manufactured ammo purposefully for sale, not for a hunting or shooting buddy.

They also found a partially competed FFL application that Haig apparently figured he didn't need to continue what he was doing.

Yeah Haig's crime was miniscule in comparison to the shooting but Uncle Sugar was going to get their pound of flesh from somebody and Haig broke the law placing a HUGE target on his back.

In case you want to read the complaint for he facts:

https://documents.latimes.com/criminal- ... glas-haig/

[TheAccountant]

You have a link to a complaint. The link I posted is the indictment. Two completely different things. The only thing he was actually charged with is 922(a)(1)(B).

[smithers599]

IOW, "armor-piercing" had nothing to do with it -- except for the Fake News propaganda. Good to know.

[YNOTAZ]

TheAccountant:

Like they say any decent prosecutor could get a Grand Jury to indict a ham sandwich.

Having been in several federal courts and many state courts, I can assure you that there was a lot of negotiating going on in the 6 months between the complaint and final decision of the prosecutor on what to put in front of a grand jury for indictment, which was granted.

Haig was arrested on February 2, and it appears by the minute entries that he was not released from Jail, awaiting trial until March 2 or 3rd.

He was arrested for all 3 charges which included conspiracy.

https://tenone2017.com/files/archive/do ... -02-07.pdf

Minute entries for the case, showing arrest, and release terms hearing:

https://www.courtlistener.com/docket/62 ... es-v-haig/

As indicated, you can buy the entire document for any minute entry on Pacer. I have a Pacer account but have no interest in reading or paying for any of the original documents. If you want, you can set up a Pacer account, it's free, and you can order any of the documents from the minute entries to see everything that happened (in Court) to Haig, @ $.10 per page.

None of the backroom dealings between prosecutors and defense attorneys are included, only the results of their negotiations as they were presented in court, like the August 22nd indictment, six months after Haig's arrest.

[TheAccountant]

Having spent 15 years doing this on a daily basis, I can confidently say that you have a severe misunderstanding of the legal system. Of course your natural reaction is to blame the gaps in basic logic on secret "backroom dealings", which takes you clearly into Shooter444 territory.

Being arrested and being charged and held accountable in court are two entirely different things. The prosecution presents charges to the grand jury, but the grand jury has the ultimate say in the charging. Any agreements made that are not in the court minutes are not legally binding, so logically the prosecution would not enter into any non-binding agreement unless the defense already performed; however, the defense would never perform because the prosecution doesn't have control over the actual charging. Your explanation makes even less sense (if that's possible) when you consider the fact it took over a year for the plea agreement. The gap in time between arrest and indictment is most likely related to the overall LV Shooter investigation, but as they say, the wheels of justice turn slowly.

The reality is that all of the original charges carried a max of 5 years and would be run concurrently anyway. There's no sense in charging the armor piercing statute since it's just one additional element for the prosecution to prove for the same prison term as the "standard" manufacturing charge. Conspiracy requires a minimum of 2 people, and it sounds like they couldn't find another bad actor in this case, so that naturally goes away. I don't know why they ultimately decided not to bring charges against his associate, but I can only assume that Haig told them the same story he told the Feds, so they could never get there from a culpability standpoint.

Like I've said 3 or 4 times now, the only crime he was ever going to stand trial for was 922(a)(1)(B).

[YNOTAZ]

You say you have been doing this for 15 years but you think the 3 original charges were dropped to one charge that he plead guilty to, with no trial, although he went to court several times to get the trial moved from Vegas and lost, went back to court to argue against a jury trial and lost, went back to court several times for continuances, accepted a plea deal, changed his plea to guilty and it all happened by magic.

And you know all the sentences would run concurrently, and the 2 others involved could not add up to conspiracy even if one was called an unindicted co-conspirators. Interesting perspective.

[TheAccountant]

I never said anything about magic - it's a daily occurrence in every court system across the country.

I know it's not uncommon for a person to be indicted on different crimes than they were originally arrested for. I know multiple related bad acts on one occasion with one victim (i.e. the Gov) 99.99% of the time results in concurrent sentences. I know it's unheard of for an off the books agreement to drive an indictment, especially since plea agreements can, and often do, involve the admission of guilt to some, not all, of the indicted charges and/or a lesser charge. I know nobody, especially the prosecution, has anything to gain by seeking an indictment on lower charges based on some backroom deal. I know conspiracy requires two willing and culpable parties, whether indicted or not. I know that with all of the publicity around this case, there's no way the Feds would have let a culpable party walk. I know you have no clue what you're talking about and want everything to involve some shady secretive conspiracy by the government. Lastly, I know you're never going to educate yourself and we're going to keep going around in circles, with you not knowing what the hell you're talking about and me repeating myself, so I'm done wasting my time.

If, by slim chance, you do decide to educate yourself, you can follow this link. It's from a District of Minnesota point of view, but the procedures are the same across the districts. You'll be able to match up the court minute summary to every step here, but I'll direct your attention to No. 5. Like I've said 5 times now: all that matters is the indictment.

"5. Grand Jury -- The final decision to prosecute a federal criminal case rests with a grand jury. A federal grand jury is comprised of 23 randomly selected citizens from across the judicial district
..."

https://www.justice.gov/usao-mn/criminal-procedures

[smithers599]

^^^
I'm going with what this guy says.

[Ballistic Therapy]

I was on the federal Grand Jury a few years ago.
We had to go every other Wednesday for one year. We heard over 1100 cases that year.
The federal Grand Jury only hears the evidence from the organization that is trying to bring charges against the one they say committed the crime.
Organizations like ATF , FBI , DHS , Border Patrol , FDA , Secret Service and so on.
The Grand Jury does not get to hear anything from the defense side.
The Grand Juries job is to determine if there is enough evidence to say a crime has been committed.
Then everyone except the people on the Grand Jury leave the room.
The Grand Jury discuses the case and goes through evidence if they want too.
Then they vote to indict or not to indict.
There are 23 people on the Grand Jury. 16 have to be present to have a quorum. 12 jurors out of the 16-23 have to vote yes to have an indictment handed down.
While this is going on whoever brought in the case is waiting outside the door.
As soon as they get the indictment they run down and get a warrant.
So basically ever case brought in front of a Federal Grand jury is indicted because all they get is evidence against the person.
Of all the cases we heard that year only one case was voted not to indict and that was only one charge of several brought against the person.
So basically if a case is brought to a Federal Grand Jury you can pretty much bet the farm that an indictment will be handed done.

[YNOTAZ]

Theacountant,

You've proven you can read, research, and gain information. You have also proven you haven't been there and gained wisdom.

Nice chatting with you.