poll,... on weapon sales

If it doesn't fit the topic in any of the other forums, and is firearm-related, put it here!

POLL,... do you believe requesting NON-FELONS only apply for a weapon purchase,.... really works?

yes
0
No votes
no
37
100%
 
Total votes: 37

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shooter444
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Re: poll,... on weapon sales

#31

Post by shooter444 »

Jamnmike, who is currently on your ignore list, made this post.
YNOTAZ,who is currently on your ignore list, made this post.

"There ya go now he can see it. LOL."

_________________________________________________

No I can't !!! :dance: :dance: :dance: , so you want to play, huh, Jamnmike?

OK, I'll play !!! :lol: :lol: :lol: But I should warn you, I only play,...by my rules!!! :whistle:


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Re: poll,... on weapon sales

#32

Post by admin »

shooter444 wrote: October 9th, 2019, 9:48 am
admin wrote: October 8th, 2019, 8:54 pm I do the same as AZ Husker - though I simply ask if they are a "prohibited possessor". I also ask if they are an AZ resident.

The 4473 also asks questions like that that about felony conviction, drug user or someone who was adjudicated mentally ill, that they may choose to lie about - but that's on them, not me as a private seller.


The 4473 form is a backdoor infringement on the 2nd amendment and our Creator Endowed Inalienable Human Right to ,...LIFE, LIBERTY and the PURSUIT of HAPPINESS! It is nothing less than REGISTRATION leading, eventually, to CONFISCATION.

What possible reasoning do you have for letting that tyrannical One World Government sponsored Demonscat infringement,... creep into the Free State of Arizona, gun laws?
wait... I thought you were being facetious! But based on your subsequent replie(s), it seems you aren't. So I then take your reply to me is suggesting that I personally am somehow permitting the "One World Government sponsored Demonscat infringement" [sic] by asking a benign question when selling a firearm privately, and filling out a 4473 when buying a firearm from a gun shop/FFL?!

While in principle, don't disagree with you... the practicality of the matter is something else entirely. I am keenly aware that a felon who would go through with a FTF purchase would not respond honestly to a question asking if he were a prohibited possessor, nor answer honestly on questions on a 4473. That doesn't change the fact that if something happened down the road with the firearm and I am questioned about it, I would like to be able to say that I did my due diligence to ensure I sold it to someone who could legally own it.

Some people choose to only sell a gun if they can get a bill of sale, or will require a picture of the buyer's AZDL, or will write down that info.
Some people will sell a gun to anyone who has the cash, no questions asked.

I find my comfort level to be somewhere in the middle, especially if the gun I am selling to someone is one that I had to fill out a 4473 myself to acquire originally.

My $0.02.
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Re: poll,... on weapon sales

#33

Post by YNOTAZ »

if you ignore admin, do you cease to exist or do your snowflakes melt faster?

Asking for a friend who hasn't made the list yet.

PS he is quite pissed about it.
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Re: poll,... on weapon sales

#34

Post by shooter444 »

No, not facetious, just opinionated. Speaking of which, and please, don't take this as a personal attack, it is just my reaction to your presentation, of your approach to sales,... if I got you right. 8-)

Call me a skeptic, but, I feel your level of "due diligence" is basically a cop out. Seems like you have set a level of legality that you can live with, and when you reach that level, you move on feeling like you accomplished "due diligence". And I'll give you this, you probably have done "due diligence" from your perspective.

But, for me, "due diligence" falls more in line with ,... making sure you know the legal status of your buyer,.... not half heart'ed questions to allow you to sleep at night,.... but, honest, in depth scrutiny.

But, as we both know (I think) "in depth scrutiny" is an impossibility, since we never, really, get to scrutinize a stranger we are selling to,... it's just not practical, and certainly not real.

Is it?

Further more, I don't buy your morality reference,... that it would bother you to find out a crime had been committed with a piece you sold. If that were so, your "due diligence" level would be a little more in depth than a few questions, asked of a possible lying criminal, in my opinion!

Again,... in depth scrutiny is just not real, for these circumstances.

Sooo 8-) , all I can see for a seller wanting true "due diligence" in a transaction with a stranger,... is that there would be ,... no transaction, imo. 8-)

________________________________

Due Diligence | Definition of Due Diligence by Merriam-Webster
https://www.merriam-webster.com › dictionary › due diligence
Definition of due diligence. 1 law : the care that a reasonable person exercises to avoid harm to other persons or their property failed to exercise due diligence in trying to prevent the accident.
Last edited by shooter444 on October 9th, 2019, 7:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: poll,... on weapon sales

#35

Post by shooter444 »

Ooops,... a dupe.
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Re: poll,... on weapon sales

#36

Post by admin »

Wait a second... your logic is all over the place and your hyperbole is off the charts. You were the one that said I (as in "me"), let "that tyrannical One World Government sponsored Demonscat infringement,... creep into the Free State of Arizona, gun laws" (your words). Explain how I have allowed that by merely asking a benign question that makes me more comfortable selling something that has my name attached to it by a 4473 'record'?
shooter444 wrote: October 9th, 2019, 7:19 pm No, not facetious, just opinionated. Speaking of which, and please, don't take this as a personal attack, it is just my reaction to your presentation, of your approach to sales,... if I got you right. 8-)

Call me a skeptic, but, I feel your level of "due diligence" is basically a cop out. Seems like you have set a level of legality that you can live with, and when you reach that level, you move on feeling like you accomplished "due diligence". And I'll give you this, you probably have done "due diligence" from your perspective.

But, for me, "due diligence" falls more in line with ,... making sure you know the legal status of your buyer,.... not half heart'ed questions to allow you to sleep at night,.... but, honest, in depth scrutiny.

But, as we both know (I think) "in depth scrutiny" is an impossibility, since we never, really, get to scrutinize a stranger we are selling to,... it's just not practical, and certainly not real.

Is it?
Nope, as private citizens, we can't - and I am 100% fine with that. I suppose you could decide to go to extremes and sell "through" an FFL and I'm sure there are some people that would only be comfortable doing that. I also know people that won't ever sell a gun.

Further more, I don't buy your morality reference,... that it would bother you to find out a crime had been committed with a piece you sold. If that were so, your "due diligence" level would be a little more in depth than a few questions, asked of a possible lying criminal, in my opinion!

Again,... in depth scrutiny is just not real, for these circumstances.

Sooo 8-) , all I can see for a seller wanting true "due diligence" in a transaction with a stranger,... is that there would be ,... no transaction, imo. 8-)
Nope - you're incorrect. Morality has ZERO to do with it and I didn't even insinuate that, so not sure where you pulled that from.

My reasoning for asking those is that if I buy a gun from a FFL and fill out a 4473, it's tied to my name via paperwork. Later, I decide I don't want the gun anymore and decide to sell it to Person 1. Person 1 happens to be a CA resident who traveled to AZ to visit family and just decided to buy a gun from a local board while he was here. He does something dumb, or maybe it's not a "CA legal" firearm and he gets busted by the police in CA for it. They want to know where he acquired it from - who is going to get questioned? Yeah, me (assuming that they take it to that level in an investigation - however unlikely). But when questioned, I'd prefer to be able to say that "I sold it to some guy in a parking lot who showed me an AZDL and said he wasn't a prohibited possessor" rather than "I sold it to some random guy in a parking lot".

Escalate that if it happened to be used in a crime.

Morality has nothing to do with it. I am not responsible for what any person does with a firearm they buy from me after I legally sell it to them.
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Re: poll,... on weapon sales

#37

Post by Flash »

You can say the guy showed you an Arizona DL whether he did or not. No way the cops can prove it one way or the other.
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Re: poll,... on weapon sales

#38

Post by Harrier »

I guess my reply got deleted....
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Re: poll,... on weapon sales

#39

Post by Boriqua »

Flash wrote: October 10th, 2019, 5:26 am You can say the guy showed you an Arizona DL whether he did or not. No way the cops can prove it one way or the other.
Unless the guy your doing the deal with is some branch of LE.
Paranoid? Could be but America has gotten wierd.
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Re: poll,... on weapon sales

#40

Post by Crippledtrigger »

Tidy bowl man cometh.
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Re: poll,... on weapon sales

#41

Post by Flash »

Boriqua wrote: October 10th, 2019, 6:47 am
Flash wrote: October 10th, 2019, 5:26 am You can say the guy showed you an Arizona DL whether he did or not. No way the cops can prove it one way or the other.
Unless the guy your doing the deal with is some branch of LE.
Paranoid? Could be but America has gotten wierd.
And if the guy is LE, he's not a prohibited possessor so it doesn't matter if I checked or not, does it?

The law doesn't require you to check if he's a prohibited possessor, you just can't knowingly sell to a prohibited possessor.

So essentially for you to get busted, the guy would have to tell you he's a prohibited possessor and you sell to him anyway.
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Re: poll,... on weapon sales

#42

Post by shooter444 »

Well, this poll is turning out to be more real than I expected! :clap:

Obviously, it is well understood that asking a criminal to honestly answer a question, is a fools folly!

Personally, I would really like to hear from board members who include such requirement in their sales ads,... as to where they got such a notion, and what results they truly expected from asking such a naive question.

I'd like to expand this thread, to include the silliness that other sellers practice, by asking for written documents in a sale,... supposedly to have a paper trail if a legal investigation comes their way, do to a bad sale. And again, just as this poll proves, no one expects criminals to answer a question honestly,... hence,... why would anyone believe a criminal will use a real ID, or, sign a paper with their real name!!!

Ahhh, but, that has been pretty much beaten to death in the past,... and should probably be another poll,... someday! :hand:

I would like to leave this thread suggesting one possible conclusion,... we, as weapon sellers, seem to have nourished a string of mind sets to alleviate some concerns for self preservation in this litigious society. Well, call me crazy, but, I don't believe any of these self gratifying exercises in preventing legal jeopardy are valid! I don't believe any of these mind sets/practices will prevent the inevitable results if the law comes knocking over a sale gone bad,... for any reason,... I.e.,... a sale to a prohibited possessor, a sale to a non-resident, a sale of a stolen weapon, a sale of a weapon previously used in a crime, a sale of a weapon used in a current crime etc., etc.!!!

I believe, if I sell to a prohibited possessor,... I will be charged,... no matter how high the stack of signed papers I possess , or, how many times the buyer answer my questions in the affirmative! And with that belief, I feel confident by responding in such a legal matter, in a manner as should be recommended to all suspects, in such legal investigations,...I will keep my mouth shut,...and I will not have a paper trail of any transaction,...I will not have a list of asked questions I think will exonerate me,... in any investigation,...of anything!


8-)
Last edited by shooter444 on October 10th, 2019, 8:46 am, edited 6 times in total.
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Re: poll,... on weapon sales

#43

Post by Boriqua »

And if the guy is LE, he's not a prohibited possessor so it doesn't matter if I checked or not, does it?

The law doesn't require you to check if he's a prohibited possessor, you just can't knowingly sell to a prohibited possessor.
I was actually referring to residency verification Flash and should have quoted the post but .. even in the case of selling to a felon here is my concern

Not to sound to alarmist or just plain tin foil hat weird... If the Dems cant push through Universal background checks that they may use federal or local LE in a more aggressive way to make going through an FFL more appealing.

They might hide it under some clever name like "The initiative for child safety" or "The Good guy compliance division" ... The LE I referenced would be an undercover and looking to trip you up.

After a couple of arrests for selling a 30 yr old rattle bucket 1911 blasted on the front page of liberal media ... selling your gun in a parking lot may soon feel more risky then it is now.

If you watch videos of some traffic stops .. its not that hard to trip someone up with leading questions and a conversational tone.

ok .. maybe I have to fashion a tin foil hat
Last edited by Boriqua on October 10th, 2019, 8:50 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: poll,... on weapon sales

#44

Post by Boriqua »

shooter444 wrote: October 10th, 2019, 8:26 am

I would like to leave this thread suggesting one conclusive thought,... we, as weapon sellers, seem to have nourished a string of mind sets to alleviate some concerns for self preservation in this litigious society. Well, call me crazy, but, I don't believe any of these self gratifying exercises in preventing legal jeopardy are valid! I don't believe any of these mind sets/practices will prevent the inevitable results if the law comes knocking over a sale gone bad,
This is untrue. I purchased a gun from a dealer (ffl) that used to participate on the old board. Great guy and great service. I had the gun maybe two months and had sold off the gun. Wasnt a good fit nothing more.

I received a phone call from the dealer some time later saying he had received a fed check on the gun. I think he referred to it as something else but it was long ago and I dont remember the correct terminology. Basically .. it would seem the gun had been involved in some illegal activity which could have simply been it was found in the possession of a felon .. or ??

With a requirement to see an AZDL you are certainly not protected from all fraud but .. its not the easiest thing in the world to copy a DL and your general meth mutt is not going to have the technology or resources. I was armed with my hand written receipt with a signature and a name and a date.

I also had the Phone number and the email we used to communicate. Turns out in the short time the gun had been sold by him to someone else and the person who was in possession of it might have been the forth owner.

I wont get into the tired ass old thread of whether you should ask for or agree to a paper trail. I will reiterate .. its my stuff .. if the terms of sale are not to your liking DONT BUY IT!

If I have a truly awesome 629 with an outstanding provenance and decide to sell it for $200 but the terms are that you have to be willing to sing the first 5 lines to some Taylor swift song ... Its my stuff my rules and you can consider for yourself if the research and singing is worth it to you.

I love guys who act as street corner preachers on the liberties that are inalienable rights and the freedoms we should embrace .. right up until they dont agree with my freedom of choice to sell my items any fugin way I wish.

Luckily for me .. my last few sales have been to board members I know and trust and knew a receipt wasnt necessary. I am happy with my current little collection
Last edited by Boriqua on October 10th, 2019, 8:57 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: poll,... on weapon sales

#45

Post by YNOTAZ »

Jamnmike wrote: October 9th, 2019, 2:41 pm
YNOTAZ wrote: October 9th, 2019, 1:24 pm I love it. He can't see my vote soo he can't bytch about it. :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
There ya go now he can see it. LOL.
Mike you made the snowflake's list Congrats! :clap: :clap: :clap:
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