Shooting at Table Mesa

[YNOTAZ]

Well BLM is finally unveiling their plan to all but stop shooting at Table Mesa. While we are still trying to convince them how woefully lacking their newly designed ranges around Lake Pleasant are, they are moving ahead using their same theories for Table Mesa.

They sent me the following communication which implies, while they can be 3 months late in getting it
out but give us 3 weeks to digest it and make comments:

“My name is Chelsea McKinney, and I am a Project Manager for the Phoenix District, Bureau of Land Management office. I have been on a detail in Boise, Idaho and was not available for this project the past three months. I have returned to the district, and I am sorry but I am playing catch up with the projects I’m assisting with. That being said I am not certain if Dale or Irina has sent you the link to the draft Table Mesa Recreation Area Environmental Assessment and draft FONSI, so I want to make sure you have the link and are aware you can provide comments until August 31, 2023.“

Here is a link to read about, review maps, and comment on the project:

https://eplanning.blm.gov/eplanning-ui/ ... 023480/570

Here is a link, another of our group found, to planning BLM started last year. Demonstrates the obvious lack of public information:

[mallic]

I haven't gone out to table mesa in a while. Place has been downright dangerous the last 2-3 times I was out there.

[aroyobob]

Fwiw, the main document at the link above is the "Table Mesa EA Draft 08012023.pdf" 4.8mb size.

The shooting areas are described starting at section 2.2.2.2. There are two shooting areas for guns and one for pellet and archery plus three sites for hiking, camping and "technical vehicles (rock crawling?)"


Table Mesa Shooting Sport Facility (Developed) – The facility would be placed on the south side of Table Mesa Road, on both sides of the Old Mine Road (9954). The approximately 24.34-acre facility area would include the following amenities: Figure 1
1. 15-25 shooting lanes (50-100 yards) divided by concrete walls allowing users to bring approved targets.
2. 3-5 long distance lanes (200+ yards) with provided fixed steel targets at various distances.
3. Shade/baffle structure over shooting platform.
4. Clay target shooting area.
5. Side containment berms made with natural material.
6. Cattle guards at entrances and exits.
7. ADA accessible vault toilet facilities.
8. 16-foot by 16-foot metal shade structure on concrete pad.
9. Concrete shooting benches/tables.
10. Pipe rail barrier fencing around parking areas.
11. ADA accessible pedestrian paths.
12. Target area containment basins approximately 3 feet wide with a 6-inch clay liner.
13. Detention pond

Table Mesa Southwest Shooting Sport Facility (Semi-Developed) - This facility will be located approximately a mile west of the Table Mesa facility, south of Table Mesa Road along route 9953 and limited to handguns only (.45 caliber max). The approximately 2.04-acre facility area would include the following amenities: Figure 2.
1. 4 to 5 shooting lanes (50-100 yard) divided by concrete walls allowing users to bring approved targets.
2. Improvements to the 9953 route to allow for easier access.
3. Side containment berms made with native material.
4. Shade/baffle structure over shooting platform.
5. Concrete shooting benches/tables.
6. Pipe rail barrier fencing around parking area.
7. Cattle guards at entrance and exit.
8. ADA accessible pedestrian paths.
9. Target area containment basins approximately 3 feet wide with a 6-inch clay liner.
10. Detention pond

Pipeline Range (Minimally Developed)- This facility will be located between Little Pan Road and the gas line road on route 9993 and be limited to compressed gas or spring fired guns and archery equipment. The approximately 3.46-acre facility area would include the following amenities: Figure 3.
1. 4-5 shooting lanes (50 yards).
2. Improvements to the 9993 route to allow for easier access.
3. Pipe rail barrier fencing around parking area.
4. ADA accessible pedestrian paths.

Also included in the plan are
1. a 20-30 space developed campground and 48 acres for primitive camping.
2. non motorized trail area
3. a 10.76 acre "technical vehicle recreation site."

[YNOTAZ]

Bob,

Thanks for picking out the pertinent points. It is fair to warn everyone that those designs are next to worthless.

I was at a BLM study group on Table Mesa. There were a lot of people representing different itersts, ecology, mining, law enforcement, tourists, mining clubs, cattle ranching and recreational shooting.

When the discussion got to shooting there were only two people there representing shooters, me and the guy who runs all of the ranges in AZ for AZGF, I don't know his name, we were not allowed to record or take notes. Part of the shooting discussion, we were asked to identify the problems with the new ranges around Lake Pleasant.

I went first and laid out a laundry list of problems, basically saying, they suck for me and other shooters like me. Then they asked the guy from AZGF. His first statement was "Tony is right". "One of the biggest problems is the ranges have no resemblance to what we originally saw and consulted on." "The ranges did not achieve what they were supposed to."

Sheriff's department said there is no indication the ranges have lessened dessert shooting.

So bottom-line, BLM pissed away tens-of-millions of dollars, ignored input from shooters, ignored input from AZGF, ignored suggestion to improve existing ranges, finally adding 5 shooting tables, that they asked for a local source for, and haven't met any of their commitments for things they were going to do.

So, that stuff is good reading but, based on history, the only factual part is the areas that will be closed to shooting, everything else is flexible, even after the gates open.

Notice the sign at left and the other 2 signs of reality.

[YNOTAZ]

double-tap

[aroyobob]

There appear to be at least a few improvements over the SR-74 sites.
1. divided lanes and bring your own "approved" targets. Didn't see what counts as approved but guessing wood frames. Does the divider separate the tables too? Would that separate people drawing from a holster or handling firearms from each other.
2. shooting tables. Wouldn't eliminate people handling guns behind the firing line but would help.
3. ADA approved walkways (so not gravel)
4. shade structures (which begs the question of operating hours / seasons.)

Improvement areas(?)
1. More lanes. The 2nd site is only slated to have 4-5 lanes. The first, 15-25 lanes. Maybe that's enough, more wouldn't hurt. Total would be up to 30 pistol capable lanes.
2. Just steel for the long range targets. Not sure what to do here. ??
3. How wide are the lanes? Can two people (instructor and student) stand side-by-side? Is there enough room for several target stands?

[YNOTAZ]

I haven't studied their proposal for Table Mesa yet, life gets in the way.

My biggest gripe to all of this is that BLM closes huge areas of desert and offers these, which, while "improved" do not offer what we need. They also tell us that this is a pattern for the rest of the country. Oh yeah, and they lie about it while they implement.

Let the FUDDS, first time gun owners, casual shooters, Ghetto and hood boys, and Microwave shooters, use BLM ranges, but leave other desert areas open, for people that want to be away from that group, want to shoot as we wish, and enforce our safety rules, that work better than their.

[YNOTAZ]

Double tap again.

Seems I always get a response of this page isn't working right now, so I do it again....

[aroyobob]

My biggest gripe to all of this is that BLM closes huge areas of desert and offers these, which, while "improved" do not offer what we need. They also tell us that this is a pattern for the rest of the country. Oh yeah, and they lie about it while they implement.

Yes, they say this plainly on page 6 of the "EA Draft" document.

Dispersed shooting areas outside of the new shooting range construction will be reclaimed and restricted from future shooting activity.

That's for alternative B which includes the shooting, camping, non-motorized, motorized areas plus some other items (cultural & wildlife.). Alternative A is "change nothing, business as usual."

fwiw, here's a map of Alternative B showing the different projects / areas proposed.

[aroyobob]

Double tap again.

Seems I always get a response of this page isn't working right now, so I do it again....

When create a post and hit "submit" I get a blank page. If I hit the back arrow I go back to the editor and back again to the original thread without my new post. When I reload the page I see the new post. Using Firefox fwiw.

[aroyobob]

Acceptable target types (from the very end of the Table Mesa EA Draft document.)

5. Possessing or storing any refuse for the purpose of target shooting with a firearm, air rifle, gas gun, or archery equipment. Refuse includes any material used as targets except:

A. Cardboard, and/or cardboard targets with reusable frames (not including wooden pallets), which are removed from the site after shooting;

B. Paper, and/or paper targets with reusable frames (not including wooden pallets), which are removed from the site after shooting;

C. Reactive targets that are designed to move and/or bounce along the ground when hit that are made of non-metallic materials; and are removed from the site after shooting;

D. Self-healing targets which are removed after shooting;

E. Metal targets specifically designed for firearms that are designed to swing, spin, or knock-down which are removed after shooting; F. Biodegradable clay targets (clay pigeons).

[xerts1191]

Thanks for all the info. you guys have posted

[aroyobob]

FYI - the BLM has extended the comment period for this plan to September 15. Click on the "participate now" to get a list of the documents with "participate now" links next to each one. Look down the list of documents for the "Table Mesa EA Draft 08012023.pdf" doc - this is the main document with descriptions of the proposed two firearm shooting spots.

https://eplanning.blm.gov/eplanning-ui/ ... 023480/510

[aroyobob]

Just a reminder that comments close on this in 10 days, on September 15.

There are three choices:

1. Change nothing at TM. Develop nothing and continue to allow dispersed shooting.

2. Proposed Action Alternative. Develop the recreational sites including the 2 gun and 1 bow/airgun ranges described in the Table Mesa EA Draft 08012023.pdf.

3. Limited Development Alternative. Expand the Recreation Area, do not develop any of the recreation sites and close the entire Rec Area to recreational shooting.