Oh my, looks like Front Sight is having a bit of an issue

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kenpoprofessor
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Oh my, looks like Front Sight is having a bit of an issue

#1

Post by kenpoprofessor »

LOL. Not surprised in the least. I got this from a member of the AZCDL, can't share the post, so here's what's in it.

As of today's date, these are the changes in Front Sight policies, procedures, and finances.
A new section is now on your Front Sight Account page labeled "F$ Bucks." Each Front Sight Buck has the value of $1 (one dollar). In the F$ Bucks tab will be listed any non-refundable, non-transferable Front Sight Bucks that we place in your account that you can use for services, products, or fees associated with Front Sight purchases. These include Pro Shop purchases, ammo purchases, food purchases, membership transfer fees, criminal background fees, and other associated and approved Front Sight fees. These are NOT Front Sight Credits or Patronage Points. These are Front Sight Bucks. They are non-refundable, non-transferable, and not redeemable for cash. This is an Exchange in Abundance as you have never had F$ Bucks in the past or been able to use F$ Bucks for so many Front Sight services and products.

All Front Sight memberships are now willable. You can designate that your membership and any assets in your account be transferred on your passing to any individual you desire who qualifies for Front Sight Membership. This is an Exchange in Abundance as only the highest-level memberships had the benefit of being able to will a membership and all the assets in the membership to a deserving individual.

Front Sight memberships can now be sold or transferred to ANY individual, even existing members. The restriction of no advertising in any public media remains in effect, but you can now sell or transfer YOUR membership or any of your "To Be Determined" Memberships to anyone, including existing Front Sight Members. This is an Exchange in Abundance as you were never able to do this in the past.

All Front Sight memberships now have access to PRIVATE TRAINING. This is an Exchange in Abundance as Private Training was only available to the highest-level members in the past.

ALL Certificates, including, but not limited to Gun and Gear Rental Certificates; Pro Shop Certificates; Hotel Stay Certificates, Fun Gun Shoot Certificates, Private Training Certificates, Advanced Course Certificates are now converted to certificates good for the Two Day and Four Day Defensive Handgun, Tactical Shotgun, or Practical Rifle Courses that one person can use to attend a four-day course or two people can use to attend a two-day course. The certificates have no expiration date, are not redeemable for cash and are valid for a student's first course only. This is an Exchange in Abundance because the certificate for a Two Day or Four Day Defensive Handgun, Tactical Shotgun, or Practical Rifle course is a $2,000 value, which exceeds the value of any of the other certificates it is replacing.
Front Sight refunded into your F$ Bucks account any Front Sight Credit Multiplier purchases you made, without reducing the number of credits or patronage points you accumulated with those purchases, giving you all those credit multipliers FREE OF CHARGE. Remember, each "Front Sight Buck" has the value of $1 (one dollar). F$ Bucks are non-refundable, non-transferable and not redeemable for cash. We placed F$ Bucks in your account, for you to use for services, products, or fees associated with Front Sight purchases. These include Pro Shop purchases, ammo purchases, food purchases, membership transfer fees, criminal background fees, and other associated and approved Front Sight fees.

Front Sight then determined what the Top 20 members with the most credits/patronage points had paid to accumulate the most credits. Taking the average amount paid by the top 20 members to accumulate their credits, Front Sight then converted Front Sight Credits/Patronage Points into the new Front Sight Coin, replacing the Credits/Patronage Points of all Members with ONE Front Sight Coin for every $100 they spent in accumulating their Front Sight Credits/Patronage Points. This places the value of a single Front Sight Coin at $100 each. There are no longer any Front Sight Credits or Patronage Points. "FS Coin" (Front Sight Coin) is now listed in your Front Sight Account. This is a HUGE Exchange in Abundance because Front Sight first refunded into your F$ Bucks account, your Front Sight Credits Multiplier purchases while allowing you to keep what you purchased. Then Front Sight converted what you had purchased into FS Coins and placed in your Front Sight Account, FREE of CHARGE, the new Front Sight Coin to the level of your past credit multiplier purchases.
As an ADDITIONAL Exchange in Abundance, Front Sight placed one additional Front Sight Coin in EVERY member's account, above and beyond what they may have paid. Front Sight Coins are good to redeem for special offers that Front Sight will create in the near future.

As I write this, Front Sight just completed delivering over 800 tactical shotguns, because they were FINALLY delivered to us from the manufacturer, as free bonuses to members who had purchased offers that included a free bonus shotgun. From this date forward, all guns that were offered as free bonuses as part of special offers and membership upgrades will NOT be delivered. Instead, the wholesale cost of the gun plus any shipping fee paid, was placed in your F$ Bucks account to be used for services, products, or fees associated with your Front Sight purchases. These are NOT Credits or Patronage Points. They are Front Sight Bucks. They are non-refundable, non-transferable, and not redeemable for cash. These guns were free bonuses. So providing you with their wholesale cost, placed in your Front Sight Bucks account is better than Fair Exchange for those members who submitted their paperwork and have been waiting for guns that have been near im possible for us to secure in the latest gun buying frenzy. It is truly an Exchange in Abundance for members, who for whatever reason, have never sent in their paperwork for us to order the free gun that was bonused them. Those members will now have the wholesale value of the gun in their F$ Bucks account to use for services, products, or fees associated with Front Sight purchases. These include Pro Shop purchases, ammo purchases, food purchases, membership transfer fees, criminal background fees, and other associated and approved Front Sight fees.

The Front Sight Members Co-Op is closed. Your purchase into the Front Sight Members Co-Op was refunded into your F$ Bucks account to use for services, products, or fees associated with Front Sight purchases. These include Pro Shop purchases, ammo purchases, food purchases, membership transfer fees, criminal background fees and other associated Front Sight fees. Front Sight Bucks are NOT Front Sight Credits or Patronage Points. A Front Sight Buck has the value of $1 (one dollar). Front Sight Bucks are non-refundable and not redeemable for cash. This is another Exchange in Abundance because even though your Co-Op.


Have a great, gun carryin', Kenpo day

Clyde


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Re: Oh my, looks like Front Sight is having a bit of an issue

#2

Post by AJS214 »

The AzCDL recently sent out an email cancelling what was to be their most recent group trip there. Given how often AzCDL supporters would plan visits there and annual meetings often auctioned, raffled, or gave away Front Sight memberships, I wonder what their reasoning was behind not going to Gunsite instead, and if that will change now.
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Re: Oh my, looks like Front Sight is having a bit of an issue

#3

Post by admin »

I saw that a few days ago. Worthy of note is that FS cancelled the "reorganization" plan for the time being to give members time to opine on it. lol

But at least give them a bit of credit for hearing the outrage and pulling back the changes for the time being.
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Re: Oh my, looks like Front Sight is having a bit of an issue

#4

Post by Basher »

admin wrote: January 29th, 2022, 8:50 pm But at least give them a bit of credit for hearing the outrage and pulling back the changes for the time being.
True. However, after seeing the vitriol and outrage he had at all the members, and how it was all their fault that FS in is this position in the first place, well… Let’s just say Dr. Gnasty Pizza has shown his true colors. I’d wager a good bit of the membership are gonna tell him to get bent and never look back. Others may forgive him and stick it out. As a member myself (though I only ever went once and got my membership for like $150), I don’t plan on going back. Plenty of much better instructors available, IMO.
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Re: Oh my, looks like Front Sight is having a bit of an issue

#5

Post by admin »

I'm not defending the tactical chiropractor - he's the wrong person to try to manage and run a business like that. It screams "time share pitch" any time he drops a 50 page email diatribe "deal of the year/decade/century/millennium" and he has a used-car-dealer vibe along with his pyramid scheme type fundraising.

I'd love to see it under new management.

The training is a bit antiquated, but FS certainly has provided training to a LOT of people that likely would not have otherwise got it - and despite how people bash it - it's still good training. The quality of what's taught is highly dependent upon the instructor you get - and they very wildly, unfortunately.
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Re: Oh my, looks like Front Sight is having a bit of an issue

#6

Post by That Guy »

Back in my Gunsite days (pre-Mills) when mentioned Piazza’ name came up instructors invariably rolled their eyes. I recall during a break period in a Carbine Class and one of my fellow students asked the lead instructor a question about the courses at Front Sight, “All he’s done is take what we teach here and moved it up to Vegas. So why would you go to Front Site and get a copy of our training when you can take a class here and get the original?” He paused for a moment and added, “Besides-Piazza is a poser.”
One of the things Piazza used to publicize was that he had gotten “E tickets” i.e. the much coveted “Expert Diploma” in a bunch of Gunsite courses. Now I didn’t know Piazza from a hole in the wall but I commented regarding the instructor’ “poser” opinion, “Well, he must be a good shot-I mean he but a load of E tickets…..” The instructor immediately sneered, “Yeah, he does-and do ya know how he got them? He kept taking the same class over and over again until he finally did.” Everyone at Gunsite back then who knew Piazza didn’t seem to have much respect for him although they did acknowledge setting up a shooting school outside of Las Vegas was nothing less than sheer brilliance and Piazza was a master of marketing and salesmanship.

I’d been given a four day class certificate for Front Sight decades ago but never used it simply because of a statement Piazza once made to the effect that when it came to shooting experience, being in a gunfight was irrelevant to whether or not you were tactically proficient which was absurd. But it was exactly the kind of pronouncement you’d expect from a tactiCOOL wannabe. Of course things might have been worse. If Piazza hadn’t built Front Sight when he did, he coulda picked up Gunsite for short money from Rich Jee when he sold the place…….
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Re: Oh my, looks like Front Sight is having a bit of an issue

#7

Post by admin »

I've heard the same thing about multiple schools, instructors and courses. Of course, that's like going to Colt or BCM and asking them what they think about PSA rifles. The fact is that they are competitors and no training school instructor is going to tell you that they are "good" or even "it's fine". Especially when the cost of training at a place like FS is usually significantly less expensive than another school.

I've taken classes from most of the big name training facilities, including taken 3 at Front Sight and find that the best training comes from going to multiple places and learning things that each one does well. There isn't a single class, instructor or school that I've found that is perfect - I've learned something good from each of them, including Front Sight.
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Re: Oh my, looks like Front Sight is having a bit of an issue

#8

Post by mtptwo »

I paid a whopping 99 bux for my membership. Took a 4 day shotgun class and thought the training was pretty good. They taught you how to proficiently use a shotgun. Plus it was free.

The owner is a complete loon though. I kinda figured it would eventually melt down. I was hoping that iggy pizza would retire before then, but nope.
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Re: Oh my, looks like Front Sight is having a bit of an issue

#9

Post by Basher »

Yes, FS certainly has trained a lot of people who otherwise may not have ever attended a course. And it does give those people a decent foundation on which to build. But I’m in the camp you mentioned later, namely “go to many and see what they teach.”

One of my biggest gripes with FS is also one you’ve mentioned. The quality of your instruction varies wildly depending on who’s teaching. I understand that will be the case from one institution to another, but it shouldn’t be the case within the same institution.

And yes, they’re antiquated in some ways. The Weaver stance works fine, but the Isosceles is the more efficient, modern stance that works better, and this has been proven for some time now. They’re very stubborn about only teaching the Weaver. It “gets the job done,” but why be so stuck in the past that you can’t learn and teach a better method? I’ve never understood that about them. Frankly, I highly prefer Mas Ayoob’s approach of teaching all the stances/grips, as they can all serve a purpose in the right situation.

Anyway, time will tell if FS can pull through, but I’m absolutely in agreement that Piazza can’t be at the helm if they are to recover. His smarmy marketing has run its course. I’ve never met a single person who liked it or agreed with his aggressive style, even amongst diehard FS fans.
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Re: Oh my, looks like Front Sight is having a bit of an issue

#10

Post by impulse »

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Re: Oh my, looks like Front Sight is having a bit of an issue

#11

Post by paulgt2164 »

Well aren't they also trying to unload a chunk of their grounds too? (I seen a thread with the listing on here somewhere....)

Adapt, modernize, or die.
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Re: Oh my, looks like Front Sight is having a bit of an issue

#12

Post by azmp5 »

I feel bad for my FIL. He took a handgun course there and had a great time. They suckered him into some expensive plan. I wanna say it was like $5k. Said they were going to send him some handgun, rifle bag, and some other stuff. FIL was saying something about the owner in some lawsuit to help defend 2A rights or some s***. Needless to say, after he saw all this come out, he's pissed.
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