ATF at Your door

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Re: ATF at Your door

#16

Post by TheAccountant »

Where does that “logic” end? Are they allowed to come search your house as long as you’re not doing anything wrong? Maybe search your car? Bank records? What’s the harm in that if you’re not doing anything illegal? Complying just to avoid future potential harassment is a shitty reason to waive your rights.


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Re: ATF at Your door

#17

Post by Joe_Blacke »

paulgt2164 wrote: July 20th, 2022, 2:46 pm
Joe_Blacke wrote: July 20th, 2022, 2:37 pm
Pretty much all cops are going to be in some sort of uniform, carrying guns and probably body armor. That doesn’t make them badge heavy.

They don’t have PC, so they don’t have a warrant. If they had PC, they wouldn’t be asking you.

So the question you ignored still stands. They know who you are. They know specifically which guns you bought. Showing them the guns are still in your possession doesn’t give them any information they don’t already have. So, assuming you are still in possession, what is the downside of complying? You would be denying them any possible PC for a warrant based on straw purchase or unlicensed seller. It also destroys RS based on the info they have.

Telling them to go away doesn’t remove RS and probably try to incentivize them to try and build PC for a warrant.
You are failing your own logic here.

They don't have PC, and can't get a warrant - so that makes it "ok" to start knocking on doors asking to search? It doesn't - at all.

Also, why does it require three armed, armored officers to knock on a door in what appears to be an affluent neighborhood to ask a question to someone who has no criminal record? I will tell you why - intimidation.

The answer of why not comply is obvious. I think I have spent plenty of words typing it.

Because it isn't the right way to do things. Because they are accusing you of a crime "nicely" and that is not their job, nor is appropriate. They are hoping to circumvent due process and get lucky.

I will turn them away every time. They won't get a warrant because there isn't any PC or RS that is legally defensible. This is why they basically beg in the video, and why the roll up with three armed "officers."

No, I’m not failing my own logic. I just know the law. Especially as it pertains to voluntary contact. I also know how it differs from RS and PC.

You’ve only explained why you are offended by their presence. You haven’t explained why complying is bad except for the fact you interpret it as “proving your innocence”. This is a feeling, your opinion, and not factual. All of that takes place at the decision point of compliance/non-compliance. I’m asking what negative things happen to you once the action of compliance with their request happens.

Whether you comply or not the “unjust accusation” and the feelings associate with it don’t change. Your decision and actions come after that. So complying, you are offended but nothing further happens to you. Not complying also has you offended, doesn’t eliminate RS…possibly leads to them trying to get a warrant…and can lead to all sorts of further headaches.
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Re: ATF at Your door

#18

Post by Joe_Blacke »

TheAccountant wrote: July 20th, 2022, 2:50 pm Where does that “logic” end? Are they allowed to come search your house as long as you’re not doing anything wrong? Maybe search your car? Bank records? What’s the harm in that if you’re not doing anything illegal? Complying just to avoid future potential harassment is a shitty reason to waive your rights.
Those are different situations. The question was what would you do in this case.

The factors in my decision. Are simple:
They know me
They know where I live
They know what guns I’ve bought based on the form
They are polite and professional
They aren’t asking for anything beyond what is on the multiple sale form
Showing them the guns are in my possession doesn’t have cost me anything and removes a bunch of potential negative outcomes.
Complying doesn’t give them anything they don’t already have.
The whole interaction is being recorded by me.

The situation and facts determine my response.

A somewhat similar situation:

A cop pulls you over. Says he pulled you over because they had reports of someone driving a car with you make/model and license plate at excessive speeds. The cop never observed you driving at excessive speeds, and you weren’t actually speeding. Because of the reports, he does have RS for the stop. He’s wearing a uniform, body armor, and has a gun.

Are you going to refuse to show him your registration if he asks? You really weren’t breaking any laws. Being stopped for not breaking any traffic laws is offensive. So you would still feel like you’re being wrongly accused.
Last edited by Joe_Blacke on July 20th, 2022, 3:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: ATF at Your door

#19

Post by XJThrottle »

I purchased 10 serialized AR lowers in one go last year.

No visits. No dogs harmed.
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Re: ATF at Your door

#20

Post by cool arrow »

Interesting parts of the article that stood out to me:


I didn’t know that this process was part the Gun Control Act, but it is. If, for instance, you decide to buy two handguns at the same time, the FFL is required to submit a form informing ATF of that purchase. You’re then on a list, and the ATF might show up at your door with a list, asking to see your weapons. There are (apparently) three reasons for ATF to show demanding to see your recent purchases.

Tracing: If your legally purchased gun is later stolen, and then used in a crime, the ATF will show up asking questions. This seems perfectly reasonable.

Investigating multiple gun purchases. That is what happened in Delaware. The owner purchased his guns, the FFL filed out the paperwork, and AFT showed up at his door.

Conducting a welfare check. If you thought “Red Flags” were new, they are not.

Assuming ATF shows up with local cops in tow, do you have to let them in your home? No, not without a warrant. And if they have a warrant, they are required to hand you a copy. Do you have to show them the weapons you purchased? No, not without a warrant, and there has to be specificity in the warrant allowing for that.

The Delaware owner took the “I have nothing to hide” route and for him, it was the right route to take. The agents were respectful and didn’t demand to see more than one weapon. They didn’t demand to enter the residence, and they left, satisfied.


Bottom line, if you purchase more than one gun at a time, don’t be surprised if ATF shows up at your door.
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Re: ATF at Your door

#21

Post by paulgt2164 »

Joe_Blacke wrote: July 20th, 2022, 2:56 pm No, I’m not failing my own logic. I just know the law. Especially as it pertains to voluntary contact. I also know how it differs from RS and PC.

You’ve only explained why you are offended by their presence. You haven’t explained why complying is bad except for the fact you interpret it as “proving your innocence”. This is a feeling, your opinion, and not factual. All of that takes place at the decision point of compliance/non-compliance. I’m asking what negative things happen to you once the action of compliance with their request happens.

Whether you comply or not the “unjust accusation” and the feelings associate with it don’t change. Your decision and actions come after that. So complying, you are offended but nothing further happens to you. Not complying also has you offended, doesn’t eliminate RS…possibly leads to them trying to get a warrant…and can lead to all sorts of further headaches.

Let them try to get a warrant.

You are overlooking the giant problem here. They obviously can't get a warrant and know it. That is why they are asking ever so nicely and that is why they showed up with three "officers."

If I call in a suspicious person, a neighbor's domestic situation, or someone walking down the street with a gun - they won't send three officers. So why show up to a house in an "normal" or "affluent" neighborhood with three "officers" to question a law abiding citizen, with no RS? If you can't admit there is some intimidation factor going on - you are blind.

They have zero reason to be there - if they did - guess what - they would have a warrant and wouldn't have to beg. That is the whole point of why this is wrong. There is zero proof this person has committed any crime, so there is zero RS and if there is zero RS there can't be PC. No PC = No Warrant.

If there was any evidence whatsoever that the person in the video was doing something illegal with firearms then they wouldn't be asking nicely. Fact of the matter is they had zero reason to actually be there hassling this guy.

The ATF isn't known for just walking away cause you complied, it just means you are on their "radar." This has been recorded many times.

Your expectation of "negative" outcomes applies to compliance or not. The chance of a negative outcome is possible either way. The difference is if you let them conduct an improper search, which is just allowing more chance for "negative outcomes." How many times has it been documented that Officers will fabricate something to get a result? Point being - if you tell them to go get a warrant you don't give them that opportunity.Then they have to go through the process. If you say "Derpity Derp here is my property" then you have given them more avenues to circumvent due process, as you just gave consent for the search. Granted, the chances of them "fabricating" a reason to go further is slim - but it is still a chance.

They are paid to do a job - that job isn't harassing and hassling law abiding citizens by "going fishing" and trying to intimidate someone into giving consent to search.
Last edited by paulgt2164 on July 20th, 2022, 3:30 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: ATF at Your door

#22

Post by paulgt2164 »

Joe_Blacke wrote: July 20th, 2022, 3:00 pm A cop pulls you over. Says he pulled you over because they had reports of someone driving a car with you make/model and license plate at excessive speeds. The cop never observed you driving at excessive speeds, and you weren’t actually speeding. Because of the reports, he does have RS for the stop. He’s wearing a uniform, body armor, and has a gun.

Are you going to refuse to show him your registration if he asks? You really weren’t breaking any laws. Being stopped for not breaking any traffic laws is offensive. So you would still feel like you’re being wrongly accused.

This isn't a similar situation.

There wasn't any "reports" of suspicious activity- so there is no RS. These "officers" just showed up cause he legally bought a couple guns in one transaction or a certain time period.

The similar situation would be you get pulled over by a cop for having a car, and then he asks you to search the vehicle cause you own a car.

For once, TheAccountant is right.
Last edited by paulgt2164 on July 20th, 2022, 3:31 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: ATF at Your door

#23

Post by QuietM4 »

My educated guess is the gun shop the firearms were purchased from may be throwing up red flags…maybe the shop has a huge increase in the number of Sale Of Multiple Handgun forms they are submitting, so the ATF has begun investigating the matter, e.g the gun shop averages 10 Sale of Multiple Handgun forms per year, but has submitted 37 in the past 2 months, and they are now checking on each person who purchased the guns to ensure the purchases are legit and not an organized ring of straw purchasers (like Operation Fast and Furious).
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Re: ATF at Your door

#24

Post by Joe_Blacke »

paulgt2164 wrote: July 20th, 2022, 3:25 pm
Joe_Blacke wrote: July 20th, 2022, 3:00 pm A cop pulls you over. Says he pulled you over because they had reports of someone driving a car with you make/model and license plate at excessive speeds. The cop never observed you driving at excessive speeds, and you weren’t actually speeding. Because of the reports, he does have RS for the stop. He’s wearing a uniform, body armor, and has a gun.

Are you going to refuse to show him your registration if he asks? You really weren’t breaking any laws. Being stopped for not breaking any traffic laws is offensive. So you would still feel like you’re being wrongly accused.

This isn't a similar situation.

There wasn't any "reports" of suspicious activity- so there is no RS. These "officers" just showed up cause he legally bought a couple guns in one transaction or a certain time period.

The similar situation would be you get pulled over by a cop for having a car, and then he asks you to search the vehicle cause you own a car.
Buying multiple guns has been deemed a suspicious act. The fact a multiple sale form is completed is and of itself RS by legal standards. It’s very easy to show RS as it fits the same pattern of gun traffickers and illegal sellers.

There is no RS for just having a car. RS would have to apply to a traffic violation using that car.
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Re: ATF at Your door

#25

Post by Joe_Blacke »

paulgt2164 wrote: July 20th, 2022, 3:23 pm
Joe_Blacke wrote: July 20th, 2022, 2:56 pm No, I’m not failing my own logic. I just know the law. Especially as it pertains to voluntary contact. I also know how it differs from RS and PC.

You’ve only explained why you are offended by their presence. You haven’t explained why complying is bad except for the fact you interpret it as “proving your innocence”. This is a feeling, your opinion, and not factual. All of that takes place at the decision point of compliance/non-compliance. I’m asking what negative things happen to you once the action of compliance with their request happens.

Whether you comply or not the “unjust accusation” and the feelings associate with it don’t change. Your decision and actions come after that. So complying, you are offended but nothing further happens to you. Not complying also has you offended, doesn’t eliminate RS…possibly leads to them trying to get a warrant…and can lead to all sorts of further headaches.

Let them try to get a warrant.

You are overlooking the giant problem here. They obviously can't get a warrant and know it. That is why they are asking ever so nicely and that is why they showed up with three "officers."

If I call in a suspicious person, a neighbor's domestic situation, or someone walking down the street with a gun - they won't send three officers. So why show up to a house in an "normal" or "affluent" neighborhood with three "officers" to question a law abiding citizen, with no RS? If you can't admit there is some intimidation factor going on - you are blind.

They have zero reason to be there - if they did - guess what - they would have a warrant and wouldn't have to beg. That is the whole point of why this is wrong. There is zero proof this person has committed any crime, so there is zero RS and if there is zero RS there can't be PC. No PC = No Warrant.

If there was any evidence whatsoever that the person in the video was doing something illegal with firearms then they wouldn't be asking nicely. Fact of the matter is they had zero reason to actually be there hassling this guy.

The ATF isn't known for just walking away cause you complied, it just means you are on their "radar." This has been recorded many times.

Your expectation of "negative" outcomes applies to compliance or not. The chance of a negative outcome is possible either way. The difference is if you let them conduct an improper search, which is just allowing more chance for "negative outcomes." How many times has it been documented that Officers will fabricate something to get a result? Point being - if you tell them to go get a warrant you don't give them that opportunity.Then they have to go through the process. If you say "Derpity Derp here is my property" then you have given them more avenues to circumvent due process, as you just gave consent for the search. Granted, the chances of them "fabricating" a reason to go further is slim - but it is still a chance.

They are paid to do a job - that job isn't harassing and hassling law abiding citizens by "going fishing" and trying to intimidate someone into giving consent to search.
I don’t see not having a warrant as a problem. I’d be glad they don’t.

You’re fixated on multiple cops there. They are there for one reason. Officer safety. They obviously know the person they are going to talk to is most likely armed. It’s basic tactics.

Hell when my smoke alarm went off, and the neighbors called the cops thinking it was a burglar alarm, 5 cops showed up.

You say there is negative outcomes for complying. What are they? There is no improper search. They are lawfully allowed to come and ask all based on the multiple sale form.
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Re: ATF at Your door

#26

Post by TheAccountant »

Joe_Blacke wrote: July 20th, 2022, 3:00 pm
TheAccountant wrote: July 20th, 2022, 2:50 pm Where does that “logic” end? Are they allowed to come search your house as long as you’re not doing anything wrong? Maybe search your car? Bank records? What’s the harm in that if you’re not doing anything illegal? Complying just to avoid future potential harassment is a shitty reason to waive your rights.
Those are different situations. The question was what would you do in this case.

The factors in my decision. Are simple:
They know me
They know where I live
They know what guns I’ve bought based on the form
They are polite and professional
They aren’t asking for anything beyond what is on the multiple sale form
Showing them the guns are in my possession doesn’t have cost me anything and removes a bunch of potential negative outcomes.
Complying doesn’t give them anything they don’t already have.
The whole interaction is being recorded by me.

The situation and facts determine my response.

A somewhat similar situation:

A cop pulls you over. Says he pulled you over because they had reports of someone driving a car with you make/model and license plate at excessive speeds. The cop never observed you driving at excessive speeds, and you weren’t actually speeding. Because of the reports, he does have RS for the stop. He’s wearing a uniform, body armor, and has a gun.

Are you going to refuse to show him your registration if he asks? You really weren’t breaking any laws. Being stopped for not breaking any traffic laws is offensive. So you would still feel like you’re being wrongly accused.
So you don’t answer my question because it’s not about the situation at hand, but then make up an utterly retarded scenario and want to discuss that?
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Re: ATF at Your door

#27

Post by paulgt2164 »

Joe_Blacke wrote: July 20th, 2022, 3:31 pm Buying multiple guns has been deemed a suspicious act. The fact a multiple sale form is completed is and of itself RS by legal standards. It’s very easy to show RS as it fits the same pattern of gun traffickers and illegal sellers.

There is no RS for just having a car. RS would have to apply to a traffic violation using that car.

And RS doesn't get you a warrant. The can be suspicious all they want, just like they can try to weasel past due process - but no evidence means no PC and no warrant. This doesn't mean I have to participate or comply - as I am totally within my legal rights to tell them to take a hike (as people should.)

Your little example you presented as "similar" when it was not.
Joe_Blacke wrote:A cop pulls you over. Says he pulled you over because they had reports of someone driving a car with you make/model and license plate at excessive speeds. The cop never observed you driving at excessive speeds, and you weren’t actually speeding. Because of the reports, he does have RS for the stop. He’s wearing a uniform, body armor, and has a gun.

Are you going to refuse to show him your registration if he asks? You really weren’t breaking any laws. Being stopped for not breaking any traffic laws is offensive. So you would still feel like you’re being wrongly accused.
First up - there isn't a "registration" for firearms, nor a law requiring it in the example of the video. So that alone debunks your example. Secondly, there were no reports of a crime being committed, observed, or witnessed with the person in the video - unlike your car example.

Also, show me where buying multiple firearms is deemed legally a "suspicious act." Just because a report is generated, doesn't make it so. I am unaware of any ruling, or any legal activity setting that precedence. There are many completely legal things that generate a "report" and aren't considered legally "suspicious." I am pretty sure if those officers went to a judge and said "Your Honor, Mt. So&So , with no criminal record, bought two handguns and we want a PC warrant" they would be laughed out of the office. That is why they were there intimidating / begging.

My adjustment on your scenario still stands.
Last edited by paulgt2164 on July 20th, 2022, 3:51 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: ATF at Your door

#28

Post by TheAccountant »

Joe_Blacke wrote: July 20th, 2022, 3:31 pm
paulgt2164 wrote: July 20th, 2022, 3:25 pm
Joe_Blacke wrote: July 20th, 2022, 3:00 pm A cop pulls you over. Says he pulled you over because they had reports of someone driving a car with you make/model and license plate at excessive speeds. The cop never observed you driving at excessive speeds, and you weren’t actually speeding. Because of the reports, he does have RS for the stop. He’s wearing a uniform, body armor, and has a gun.

Are you going to refuse to show him your registration if he asks? You really weren’t breaking any laws. Being stopped for not breaking any traffic laws is offensive. So you would still feel like you’re being wrongly accused.

This isn't a similar situation.

There wasn't any "reports" of suspicious activity- so there is no RS. These "officers" just showed up cause he legally bought a couple guns in one transaction or a certain time period.

The similar situation would be you get pulled over by a cop for having a car, and then he asks you to search the vehicle cause you own a car.
Buying multiple guns has been deemed a suspicious act. The fact a multiple sale form is completed is and of itself RS by legal standards. It’s very easy to show RS as it fits the same pattern of gun traffickers and illegal sellers.

There is no RS for just having a car. RS would have to apply to a traffic violation using that car.
I’m sorry, what? Purchasing multiple guns is reasonable suspicion that someone is illegally trafficking firearms because a form that the government made up was filled out because the government requires it? Not even close. I really hope you’re just a mall security guard that always dreamed of being a cop and not actually a cop, otherwise I think I’ve lost what little respect I had left for cops.
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Re: ATF at Your door

#29

Post by paulgt2164 »

Joe_Blacke wrote:
I don’t see not having a warrant as a problem. I’d be glad they don’t.

You’re fixated on multiple cops there. They are there for one reason. Officer safety. They obviously know the person they are going to talk to is most likely armed. It’s basic tactics.

Hell when my smoke alarm went off, and the neighbors called the cops thinking it was a burglar alarm, 5 cops showed up.

You say there is negative outcomes for complying. What are they? There is no improper search. They are lawfully allowed to come and ask all based on the multiple sale form.
You obviously don't see having a warrant as not an issue - because you apparently are happily waiving your rights in exchange for "LE" harassing / hassling / fishing at your expense.

And you are lawfully allowed to tell them you don't consent. Like I said - you seem perfectly happy to comply and waive your rights - obviously many of us here find more value in those rights than you do.

The fact of the matter is - they had zero reasonable suspicion of this person, and they showed up to his house with three officers and harassed / intimidated him into complying to a search that is based on zero evidence of wrong-doing.
Last edited by paulgt2164 on July 20th, 2022, 3:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: ATF at Your door

#30

Post by Joe_Blacke »

paulgt2164 wrote: July 20th, 2022, 3:47 pm
Joe_Blacke wrote: July 20th, 2022, 3:31 pm Buying multiple guns has been deemed a suspicious act. The fact a multiple sale form is completed is and of itself RS by legal standards. It’s very easy to show RS as it fits the same pattern of gun traffickers and illegal sellers.

There is no RS for just having a car. RS would have to apply to a traffic violation using that car.

And RS doesn't get you a warrant. The can be suspicious all they want, just like they can try to weasel past due process - but no evidence means no PC and no warrant. This doesn't mean I have to participate or comply - as I am totally within my legal rights to tell them to take a hike (as people should.)

Your little example you presented as "similar" when it was not.
Joe_Blacke wrote:A cop pulls you over. Says he pulled you over because they had reports of someone driving a car with you make/model and license plate at excessive speeds. The cop never observed you driving at excessive speeds, and you weren’t actually speeding. Because of the reports, he does have RS for the stop. He’s wearing a uniform, body armor, and has a gun.

Are you going to refuse to show him your registration if he asks? You really weren’t breaking any laws. Being stopped for not breaking any traffic laws is offensive. So you would still feel like you’re being wrongly accused.
First up - there isn't a "registration" for firearms, nor a law requiring it in the example of the video. So that alone debunks your example. Secondly, there were no reports of a crime being committed, observed, or witnessed with the person in the video - unlike your car example.

Also, show me where buying multiple firearms is deemed legally a "suspicious act." Just because a report is generated, doesn't make it so. I am unaware of any ruling, or any legal activity setting that precedence. There are many completely legal things that generate a "report" and aren't considered legally "suspicious." I am pretty sure if those officers went to a judge and said "Your Honor, Mt. So&So , with no criminal record, bought two handguns and we want a PC warrant" they would be laughed out of the office. That is why they were there intimidating / begging.

My adjustment on your scenario still stands.
You do realize that on the Multiple sale form it states your name, address and the guns you are buying. That is the same thing as registration.

RS is the lowest level in the stand of proof. You’re equating it to PC which it is not. RS is very easy to satisfy. All I need are articulable facts.
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