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Investigating multiple gun purchases. That is what happened in Delaware. The owner purchased his guns, the FFL filed out the paperwork, and AFT showed up at his door.
Joe_Blacke said:If they came to my door politely asking, as they did here, I’d be happy to comply. No harm showing them I still possessed the same guns the form already tells them I own. Not complying would be far worse as I can guarantee you would be flagged for further investigation as straw purchase/unlicensed seller.
I’ve done multiple purchases before and honestly expected a visit at some point. As long as they are polite, not arrogant, badge heavy jerks, the best route is to let them do their job.
Now I wouldn’t let them inside. I wouldn’t let them hold the firearms, but just inspect the make/model/serial.
They are at least trying to be proactive. Finding the bad actors before bad stuff happens is a good thing.
kenpoprofessor said:Joe_Blacke said:If they came to my door politely asking, as they did here, I’d be happy to comply. No harm showing them I still possessed the same guns the form already tells them I own. Not complying would be far worse as I can guarantee you would be flagged for further investigation as straw purchase/unlicensed seller.
I’ve done multiple purchases before and honestly expected a visit at some point. As long as they are polite, not arrogant, badge heavy jerks, the best route is to let them do their job.
Now I wouldn’t let them inside. I wouldn’t let them hold the firearms, but just inspect the make/model/serial.
They are at least trying to be proactive. Finding the bad actors before bad stuff happens is a good thing.
And I'm sure you'd hand them over if they told you that one or more of those guns were reported stolen, even though you have receipt in hand for purchase. Yep, FUDDs are still out there.
Have a great, gun carryin', Kenpo day
Clyde
Joe_Blacke said:If they came to my door politely asking, as they did here, I’d be happy to comply. No harm showing them I still possessed the same guns the form already tells them I own. Not complying would be far worse as I can guarantee you would be flagged for further investigation as straw purchase/unlicensed seller.
I’ve done multiple purchases before and honestly expected a visit at some point. As long as they are polite, not arrogant, badge heavy jerks, the best route is to let them do their job.
Now I wouldn’t let them inside. I wouldn’t let them hold the firearms, but just inspect the make/model/serial.
They are at least trying to be proactive. Finding the bad actors before bad stuff happens is a good thing.
Or maybe some people just don’t live paranoid lives. The reason they are there is because of the multiple sale. Hard to claim stolen in that case.
It’s easy to way over think stuff. If a Leo wants to have a voluntary interaction with me, it’s their demeanor and communication style that will determine my level of compliance.
For the most part they are just trying to do their job. Coming to my door and politely ASKING isn’t any type of violation. Coming to my door and telling me (absent a warrant), is a different matter.
Joe_Blacke said:Not complying would be far worse as I can guarantee you would be flagged for further investigation as straw purchase/unlicensed seller.
kenpoprofessor said:And I'm sure you'd hand them over if they told you that one or more of those guns were reported stolen, even though you have receipt in hand for purchase.
Clyde
paulgt2164 said:Joe_Blacke said:If they came to my door politely asking, as they did here, I’d be happy to comply. No harm showing them I still possessed the same guns the form already tells them I own. Not complying would be far worse as I can guarantee you would be flagged for further investigation as straw purchase/unlicensed seller.
I’ve done multiple purchases before and honestly expected a visit at some point. As long as they are polite, not arrogant, badge heavy jerks, the best route is to let them do their job.
Now I wouldn’t let them inside. I wouldn’t let them hold the firearms, but just inspect the make/model/serial.
They are at least trying to be proactive. Finding the bad actors before bad stuff happens is a good thing.
Or maybe some people just don’t live paranoid lives. The reason they are there is because of the multiple sale. Hard to claim stolen in that case.
It’s easy to way over think stuff. If a Leo wants to have a voluntary interaction with me, it’s their demeanor and communication style that will determine my level of compliance.
For the most part they are just trying to do their job. Coming to my door and politely ASKING isn’t any type of violation. Coming to my door and telling me (absent a warrant), is a different matter.
Lol,
They are being exactly "badge heavy jerks" - funny how you fail to realize this.
They are basically showing up at your door accusing you of a crime (even if they are "nice" about it) and demanding you to prove your innocence. The fact in the video Mr. ATF has two other people with them - all armed and in body armor, is an act of intimidation to further coerce you into complying with their illegal search fishing trip.
I have bought over 6 firearms from various dealers last month alone - and if they showed up at my door - the response (if I even answer) delivered through my intercom would be to inform them it the interaction was being recorded, go get a warrant, and I am calling my lawyer.
Their "proactive" doesn't include trampling on your rights, intimidation, and illegal search. They can be "proactive" through a multitude of actual legal and acceptable means - but this is by far the easiest for them to do.
Why actually "investigate" when they can just go knocking on lawfully abiding citizen's doors and hope to scare them into illegal searches hoping to get lucky? How many people are ignorant enough to actually invite them in - so that way they can look around your residence hoping you have some prescription drugs, or paraphernalia in sight to escalate the situation and stop more "gun crime?"
It isn't "paranoid" at all - it is called understanding our rights, understanding the limitations of their jobs, and realizing that what they are doing is wrong - plain and simple.
Joe_Blacke said:They aren’t accusing you of anything.
Badge heavy is a manner of demeanor. It’s a lack of professionalism. These guys were polite and professional. I’ve had bad interactions with cops that are truly badge heavy.
Judging the whole story based on this ring cam is impossible. Very few multiple sales ever get flagged. My bet is something else was triggered to get them to come out. Doesn’t mean any laws were broken but the cops job is to investigate.
I understand why someone might be offended by being asked. But once you’ve been asked, what is the downside of complying (assuming you still had possession)? That they confirm that you still possess the guns they already know you bought?
paulgt2164 said:Joe_Blacke said:They aren’t accusing you of anything.
Badge heavy is a manner of demeanor. It’s a lack of professionalism. These guys were polite and professional. I’ve had bad interactions with cops that are truly badge heavy.
Judging the whole story based on this ring cam is impossible. Very few multiple sales ever get flagged. My bet is something else was triggered to get them to come out. Doesn’t mean any laws were broken but the cops job is to investigate.
I understand why someone might be offended by being asked. But once you’ve been asked, what is the downside of complying (assuming you still had possession)? That they confirm that you still possess the guns they already know you bought?
Yes, we don't know the whole story - but if there was more to it I think it would have went a different way. The dude is obviously not in violation of any laws or they wouldn't be asking "nicely."
So you think
"Mr So&So, we noticed you legally bought two guns last month - since we are trying to reduce gun crime can you go get them and show them to us to make sure you aren't breaking the law"
Isn't an accusation? Because it is. That means they think there is a chance you are violating the law. They are literally asking you to prove you are innocent.
As far as "badge heavy" goes - how is showing up with three armed people in body armor, to ask a citizen to prove their innocence with zero evidence or proof a crime has been committed not "badge heavy?"
The downside is the more people "comply" with this behavior - the more they will do it, and the more they will roll it into other things.
Just imagine - "Mr. So&So, we noticed you went to the urgent care and were prescribed a controlled substance, do you still have those or did you properly dispose of them according to the law? We are going to have to check you did."
How about :
"Mr. S0&So - we noticed that you registered a second car to your name, we are going to need to see that car, and the ID of all who drive it to make sure that the vehicle is properly insured and not being operated by unlicensed drivers....."
Since apparently if someone is polite you just comply, can I come by your place and root through the fridge, take a dump in your bathroom, and have sex with your wife - I promise to ask nicely?
Joe_Blacke said:Pretty much all cops are going to be in some sort of uniform, carrying guns and probably body armor. That doesn’t make them badge heavy.
They don’t have PC, so they don’t have a warrant. If they had PC, they wouldn’t be asking you.
So the question you ignored still stands. They know who you are. They know specifically which guns you bought. Showing them the guns are still in your possession doesn’t give them any information they don’t already have. So, assuming you are still in possession, what is the downside of complying? You would be denying them any possible PC for a warrant based on straw purchase or unlicensed seller. It also destroys RS based on the info they have.
Telling them to go away doesn’t remove RS and probably try to incentivize them to try and build PC for a warrant.
paulgt2164 said:Joe_Blacke said:Pretty much all cops are going to be in some sort of uniform, carrying guns and probably body armor. That doesn’t make them badge heavy.
They don’t have PC, so they don’t have a warrant. If they had PC, they wouldn’t be asking you.
So the question you ignored still stands. They know who you are. They know specifically which guns you bought. Showing them the guns are still in your possession doesn’t give them any information they don’t already have. So, assuming you are still in possession, what is the downside of complying? You would be denying them any possible PC for a warrant based on straw purchase or unlicensed seller. It also destroys RS based on the info they have.
Telling them to go away doesn’t remove RS and probably try to incentivize them to try and build PC for a warrant.
You are failing your own logic here.
They don't have PC, and can't get a warrant - so that makes it "ok" to start knocking on doors asking to search? It doesn't - at all.
Also, why does it require three armed, armored officers to knock on a door in what appears to be an affluent neighborhood to ask a question to someone who has no criminal record? I will tell you why - intimidation.
The answer of why not comply is obvious. I think I have spent plenty of words typing it.
Because it isn't the right way to do things. Because they are accusing you of a crime "nicely" and that is not their job, nor is appropriate. They are hoping to circumvent due process and get lucky.
I will turn them away every time. They won't get a warrant because there isn't any PC or RS that is legally defensible. This is why they basically beg in the video, and why the roll up with three armed "officers."
TheAccountant said:Where does that “logic” end? Are they allowed to come search your house as long as you’re not doing anything wrong? Maybe search your car? Bank records? What’s the harm in that if you’re not doing anything illegal? Complying just to avoid future potential harassment is a shitty reason to waive your rights.
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