Training classes available in Arizona, fall edition

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AJS214
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Training classes available in Arizona, fall edition

#1

Post by AJS214 »

I originally posted this on reddit, but I thought it might be a good idea to post it here as well.

There are always the usual indoor classes available at Ted's, C2 Tactical, Scottsdale Gun Club, Caswell's, and others.

https://scottsdalegunclub.com/classes
https://c2tacticaltempe.com/firearm-classes/
https://tedsshootingrange.com/classes/
https://caswells.com/training/

Scottsdale Gun Club rolled out eight new classes earlier this month. What's new about these classes is that some build upon their preexisting curriculum, some have been combined into a longer time format, and some are old classes that have been revised based on previous feedback.

'Ladies Only Defensive Handgun' is completely new as far as I can tell, compared to 'Ladies of Liberty' for weapons familiarization and 'Concealed with Curves' for accessories lecture.
'Advanced Handgun Skills Development' is a continuation of 'Handgun Skills Development', which covered fundamentals and deliberate practice in the ways that you often hear or read competition shooters go on for hours and hours about, where some folks get a real buzz from but others glaze over. This time it's about transitions, to/from cover, and yet more drills to add to your practice planning.
'Defensive Handgun Skills Development' is the first one that stuck out to my mind, and I'll be taking it along with the other class I mentioned above to see how they are different.
'Basic Carbine' I never took, so 'Advanced Carbine' is something I can comment even less on. I don't know whether they decided their original 'Basic Carbine' spread too much material too thin and decided they were better off splitting it into two classes, or if it was just a matter of too much time being spent on teaching people how to zero their weapons and the proper form that zeroing requires.
The 'Two Day Defensive Handgun Course' is their Defensive Handgun levels I-IV, all knocked out over a single weekend instead of the 3-to-4 hour blocks they normally have on workdays.
'Low Light Handgun Skills Refresher' seems to be what it says on the label. Low light is first taught in level III and from what I remember most of it was learning the holds and then seeing how distance becomes even more of a factor when trying to identify and shoot targets in live-fire.
'Holster Presentation' nets members of SGC a card that allows holster draw in future range visits. Before, you had to take level II, which meant you had to take level I. This focuses a little bit more on reloads and malf clearances than II.
Note that while IWB holsters are not allowed in any of their classes, afterwards I have been able to draw from concealment in appendix position while practicing on my own in subsequent visits, and I've seen others with a draw card doing so as well, although it's uncommon. Most of the holster guys I see are wearing open speed rigs.

Remember that if you want to vet your equipment choices, hone your fundamentals, and build confident and safe weapons handling under the addition of time and pressure so that you can get the most out of whatever your training classes are actually trying to teach, Arizona has damn near the best competition scene on a state national level. Check out the Practical Shooting Starter Course at Rio Salado (best $40 of gun money I've ever spent) if you'd rather not just jump straight into the fire on a regular match, though most folks are plenty friendly if you let them know you are new and ask questions. Get an account on the Practiscore website/app to find and register for upcoming shoots in your area, and track your scores.

https://www.rsscaz.com/divisions/practical-pistol/pssc
https://practiscore.com/

====================================================================================
Maybe you've already got the basics of handgun use, took one of the many 4 or 8 hour CCW classes offered around here, and have spent some time working from a holster and pouches instead of the bench. Perhaps you've also already shot in some weekly matches, or you've taken a couple defensive pistol courses at one of our local ranges, and there's a few names that get dropped that you remember.
====================================================================================

Can't make it to a Shivworks class with Craig Douglas? Learn about these concepts in force-on-force exercises with UTM rounds and roleplayers, as presented by Cecil Burch and Glen Stilson.

10/4-10/5: Independence Training - Close Contact Handgun
https://www.independencetraining.com/tr ... t-handgun/
11/8-11/9: Independence Training - Entangled Handgun
https://www.independencetraining.com/tr ... d-handgun/

Where a good instructor can make or break the difference between someone who becomes a competent and responsible shooter, or someone who becomes joins the legions of 'that guy', or even gives up altogether, Tom Givens is the instructor of good instructors. This class, in Caleb Gidding's words, "is pure essence of superior defensive pistolcraft".

11/2-11/3: Rangemaster - Intensive Pistol Skills
https://rangemaster.com/training/intensive-pistol/

Rob Haught is one of the few remaining defensive shotgun instructors remaining in the age of the patrol carbine. My home defense weapon is a Remington 870, and while I have shot at clays and paper a handful of times and taken the shotgun classes at SGC a couple of times, I need to do better.

10/19-10-20: Rob Haught - Shotgun Skills
https://www.eventbrite.com/e/symtac-con ... 5569180183

Gabe White is known for competing at a high level in the USPSA with his carry gear despite the disadvantages that it presents in a competitive setting. His style of teaching focuses on students integrating that level of technical performance for everyday self-defense, which most instructors with a competitive background choose not to address. When I attended this earlier at the beginning of this year, there were a couple Rogers alumni and Gunsite instructors in the class, which I think speaks for itself. Can't wait to see him again.

10/26-10/27: Gabe White - Pistol Shooting Solutions
https://www.eventbrite.com/e/pistol-sho ... 1790615394

If you visit the outdoor ranges like Ben Avery, Rio Salado, Phoenix Rod & Gun, Pima Pistol Club, etc, you're bound to see T-shirts from local competition trainers like Hammer Down or Secret Weapon. If you're looking for an outsider, Tim Herron's a lefty single-stack shooter who started shooting in 2010 and became a grandmaster four years later, not because he spent hours at the range shooting a thousand rounds or more, but because he had good mentors who showed him better ways to practice.

11/23-11/24 - Tim Herron - Practical Performance
http://timherronshooting.com/practicalperformance.html

Do you carry or compete with a red dot? Scott Jedlinski's your guy for that. I'm still sticking to irons but I've taken his AIWB class hosted by AJ Zito at PPT in Prescott. Both of their abilities to diagnose and make corrections with noticeable improvements in performance are a thing to behold. Scott also does an online coaching option that is relatively new (the only other ones I've heard of are from Ben Stoeger and John McPhee) and I may end up trying that in the future.

10/12-10/13: Modern Samurai Project - Red Dot Fundamentals and Performance
https://modern-samurai-project.myshopif ... 12-13-2019

If you read Recoil Magazine, you may have seen Melody Lauer's featured print article in last month's issue. Her and co-instructor John Johnston have also been on Lucky Gunner's YouTube channel with Chris Baker in his Start Shooting Better series. Last winter they were hosted here by John Correia for their Armed Parent/Guardian courses, but this time they'll be teaching their Armed Citizen/Public Encounters course which I think is actually new. Technical Handgun: Tests and Standards will be making a return though.

12/13: Citizens Defense Research - Contextual Handgun, Fundamental Applied Pistol Skills
https://www.eventbrite.com/e/phoenix-ar ... 1947886797

12/14-12/15: Citizens Defense Research - Contextual Handgun, The Armed Citizen/Public Encounters
https://www.eventbrite.com/e/phoenix-ar ... 3892192267

12/17: Citizens Defense Research - Technical Handgun, Tests and Standards
https://www.eventbrite.com/e/phoenix-ar ... 3887434035

If there's a class or a match that's coming up that you guys think everyone should know about, don't hesitate to post about it!


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Re: Training classes available in Arizona, fall edition

#2

Post by smithers599 »

Clint Smith/Thunder Ranch has three 2-day classes back to back in February, at the Casa Grande range: pistol, urban rifle, and vehicle. Check the Thunder Ranch website.
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Re: Training classes available in Arizona, fall edition

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Post by ooda »

smithers599 wrote: July 31st, 2019, 6:00 am Clint Smith/Thunder Ranch has three 2-day classes back to back in February, at the Casa Grande range: pistol, urban rifle, and vehicle. Check the Thunder Ranch website.
The Defensive Handgun 1 course is $800 - $1500 for 2 day course. That is insane. I know traing and learning propert gun handling and the use of your pistol is important, but I can't justify the cost.
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Re: Training classes available in Arizona, fall edition

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Post by smithers599 »

I paid $800 for a 2-day class with Tom Givens. Expensive? Yes. Hard for me to afford? Yes. Worth the money? Every penny.

Likewise $800 for a 3-day class this past April with Rob Leatham. Worth it.

I am thinking hard about the urban rifle class with Clint Smith. (Already took the pistol class years and years ago.) Only problem is it is scheduled on my wife's birthday, and that sort of is mandatory attendance.

I will say this: that level of training is money wasted for less experienced shooters. In both the Givens and Leatham classes, for example, everybody there was an experienced competitor, concealed carrier, and in many cases, instructor, who had taken (and taught) many classes before. There was no time spent practicing to Keep Your Finger Off The Trigger and the five steps of the draw and here is how to reload. Everybody was presumed (correctly) to know those things. People who aren't sure which gun to buy, or which holster to buy, should start with the local lessons like Scottsdale Gun Club and Shooters World.
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Re: Training classes available in Arizona, fall edition

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Post by smithers599 »

Speaking of Ted's:
I have never taken classes there, but I have shot alongside Liz and Amanda, and they are some serious bad-ass shooters. Those women know what they are doing. Don't let your male ego get in the way; you can learn stuff from them.
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Re: Training classes available in Arizona, fall edition

#6

Post by AJS214 »

Thank you so much for the tip! I'll go ahead and post the dates and a couple links here.

====================================================================================
Clint Smith is part of the older generation of instructors that worked with Jeff Cooper/Gunsite in the Modern Technique era of handgunning, along with Ken Hackathorn, Chuck Taylor, and a few other names I can't remember.

2/6-2/7, 2020: Thunder Ranch - Defensive Handgun 1
https://thunderranchinc.com/product/def ... ndgun-dh1/

2/8-2/9, 2020: Thunder Ranch - Urban Rifle
https://thunderranchinc.com/product/urban-rifle/

2/11-2/12, 2020: Thunder Ranch - Handgun Vehicle Class (students must use their own vehicles)
https://thunderranchinc.com/product/han ... cle-class/
====================================================================================

It looks like the second, higher cost applies only if you are taking the class at Thunder Ranch up in Lakeview, Oregon, as classes in those locations are three days rather than two.

When it comes to addressing the issue of cost, it is important to place a few things in perspective. Some folks wouldn't pay $800-$1500 for a firearm under any circumstance, which I think is understandable. The questions asked in both the case of a expensive class and a expensive gun are similar. What is the prospective student/buyer looking to get out of it? In this particular example, a glance at the description for DH1 on Thunder Ranch's website lists the basic portion of instruction to include

- safety,
- drawing,
- loading,
- and malfunctions,

which I believe falls under the idea of 'proper gun handling'. However, 'some' advanced skills that will also be covered include

- firing at extended distance,
- moving targets,
- shooting and moving,
- basic tactics,
- and low light handgun operation (with a handheld clicky/momentary tailcap switched light).

Note that all of these concepts can be introduced and familiarized in multiple, shorter separate local classes from the options I listed in my original post. It is definitely very possible to accomplish this at a lower cost of tuition over a longer period of time -- from what little I know about adult learning theory, this would probably be the the better option in terms of retaining information and getting students to practice the concepts they have been taught in between classes instead of, say, going on a week's vacation to Gunsite 250 and then going back to doing zero dry fire and a handful of range trips to plink for the rest of the year(s).

However, some students and instructors (who I've heard described as advanced students) may prefer knocking these concepts out in a couple or a few days, for different reasons: they might just want to drink from the firehose anyway, or they've already taken similar classes already before and want a shorter refresher. Some folks just want to train with Clint Smith because of brand recognition with Thunder ranch, or his personality and teaching style appeals to them. That touches on something pretty important that I learned when taking classes with Ernest Langdon, which is about verbage; if everyone is more or less teaching the same things, finding different ways to say them and demonstrate them may open up insight on something you thought you already knew about. Folks with this sort of dedication are admittedly within a filament of a fraction of a percentage.

Not everyone is necessarily teaching the same things though. I see that Clint Smith's handgun vehicle class requires the use of the student's own vehicle. Compare this to Will Petty and Chase Jenkin's vehicle class which uses junkers -- here's a link to the class description, and a recent review from Civilian Gunfighter blog.

https://centrifugetraining.com/courses/vcqb/
https://civiliangunfighter.wordpress.co ... 9-30-2019/

Shooting in and around vehicles is certainly a very relevant concept to know about in a concealed carry context, but I think the majority of concealed carriers in Arizona, let alone the rest of the US, have a more immediate issue to address training-wise. We have more than enough options for obtaining a CCW permit, but the dominant model for these options, which is

- classroom lecture about justification of deadly force,
- with maybe a cursory attempt at a written test
- and marksmanship test,
- with brief discussions of situational awareness and interaction with law enforcement,
- and perhaps some opinion offered of different carry methods and less-lethal options,

is dire need of an update, not in legislation, but in best practice. Some instructors will offer separate basic pistol and defensive pistol classes separate from the CCW class, but the CCW class itself will almost always not teach the technical portions necessary for students who are theoretically going to wear or carry a concealed handgun very soon or perhaps already. For example, drawstroke and holstering may certainly be offered in a separate class, but these classes will usually be taught based on students wearing an outside-the-waistband range holster and shooting a full-sized handgun. A good way to start learning about drawstroke and holstering, but I don't think that's what quite what drawing and holstering from concealment looks like with anything from a J-frame or LCP to even a Glock 34.

Independence Training has a CCW class which I believe is a great start that is flexible with three different tuition rates based on what you want to do, although I've not taken it but have taken other classes with them.

https://www.independencetraining.com/tr ... cw-permit/

Some resources that influenced what I was thinking when writing this:

- Strategies and Standards for Defensive Handgun Use, by Karl Rehn and John Daub. It's 20 bucks on Amazon but you can read the foundation for the book material if you search for entries on 'beyond the one percent' and 'minimum competency' on their respective blogs:
http://blog.krtraining.com/beyond-the-o ... nt-part-1/
https://blog.hsoi.com/tag/minimum-competency/

- Training for the Worst Day of Your Life, a video by Chris Baker on Lucky Gunner's YouTube Channel. All of his videos are professionally done and everything he presents is thought out very well.


- "Amateurs think equipment, students think technique, experts think tactics." - John Holschen, InSights Training.

- Can You Afford More Training? by Melody Lauer on her old blog, Limatunes' Range Diary.
https://limatunesrangediary.blogspot.co ... ining.html
- Why You Aren't a Better Shooter, by Melody Lauer on Lucky Gunner's Lounge blog. Something something better enemy good enough. Check out the performance & automaticity graph.
https://www.luckygunner.com/lounge/why- ... nt-better/

- Who Wins, Who Loses, and Why, by John Hearne. Not his actual lecture, which is on my bucket list, but he talked about the key points not that long ago on Mike Seeklander and Rich Brown's podcast.
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