How point shooting became a thing

[smithers599]

Rather than say Jelly Bryce and the FBI set back the evolution of pistolcraft, I propose that they advanced it, by adding the element of speed, not to mention the idea that maybe people should actually practice. Prior to that, what little training there was involved one-handed slow-fire bullseye target shooting.

Likewise, Cooper backed the wrong horse when he adopted Jack Weaver's technique instead of Eldon Carl's. Arguably, he delayed the evolution of pistolcraft by a generation or two, until Enos and Leatham rediscovered Eldon Carl's grip and stance. But, Cooper's biggest contribution was to get us away from one-handed hip shooting, and use two hands and the sights.

[XJThrottle]

Maybe this is worthy of a thread of it's own...

But, what is the grip/stance most use? I got kinda roasted by an instructor in a pistol class for not using Weaver's..

[smithers599]

https://www.eldencarl.com/

Compare with Cooper's "Weaver" grip:
https://www.gunsite.com/wp-content/uplo ... arrell.jpg

Compare the thumb positions. Cooper has left thumb on top of right, with a gap between left hand and pistol. Carl has right thumb on top of left, and base of left thumb is touching the pistol.

Lots of videos on YouTube with guys like Max Michel, Robert Vogel, Jerry Miculek, etc., but they are all very similar if not identical. Right thumb on top of left (for RH shooters), as much contact with pistol as possible. Hands high on the gun. Left thumb pointing forward. Press into pistol with base of left thumb.
Forget 60/40 or 50/50, which is how I learned in the Dark Ages. 100% grip strength in both hands; squeeze the gun -- front/rear, side/side -- until it screams for its lawyer.

[WhiteDragon]

Maybe this is worthy of a thread of it's own...

But, what is the grip/stance most use? I got kinda roasted by an instructor in a pistol class for not using Weaver's..

This is extremely hard to explain w/o showing you due to proprioception and kinesthesia. I use an isosceles with my strong-side foot about 3" or so behind my support. Toes and hips forward, slight bend on the knees and grasping w the toes. Back straight, shoulders relaxed and head up. Grip, well, let's just say, grip the dawned thing! Lol! The grip is the secret of my success and thats even harder to explain BUT, if you master it, that gun will run flat regardless of how fast you shoot. I can have a s*** stance and slap the hell out of the trigger, but w a a good grip, I'm hitting where I want every time.

[xerts1191]

Aiming is useless
Rob Leathem

[Suck My Glock]

This is all rather much like the arguments between martial art dogmas. Loyal practitioners of Karate would insult WuShu guys as flamboyant dancers, while Shoalin and Kempo dudes would argue which is the best way.

Then Bruce Lee comes along and angers all the purists from all the disciplines by deciding to pick and choose what worked from each art and mash it up and combine it together into his own thing called Jeet Kun Do.

The truth is that there is a wide variety of human physiology and body types and capabilities, so it is difficult to state that any one type or style of martial art works for all. Some certainly seem to shine more than others. But ultimately, the answer as to what is best is actually what is best FOR YOU. And the only way to answer that is to sample all the styles there are to teach. This is also true of what be called "gun kata". Expose yourself to different practices and concepts. Do as Bruce Lee did, and reject what doesn't work well, adopt what does.

[kenpoprofessor]

This is all rather much like the arguments between martial art dogmas. Loyal practitioners of Karate would insult WuShu guys as flamboyant dancers, while Shoalin and Kempo dudes would argue which is the best way.

Then Bruce Lee comes along and angers all the purists from all the disciplines by deciding to pick and choose what worked from each art and mash it up and combine it together into his own thing called Jeet Kun Do.

The truth is that there is a wide variety of human physiology and body types and capabilities, so it is difficult to state that any one type or style of martial art works for all. Some certainly seem to shine more than others. But ultimately, the answer as to what is best is actually what is best FOR YOU. And the only way to answer that is to sample all the styles there are to teach. This is also true of what be called "gun kata". Expose yourself to different practices and concepts. Do as Bruce Lee did, and reject what doesn't work well, adopt what does.

There is only "the way", Bruce didn't invent it either, your assessment of what he did is way off the mark. The different styles and systems came from when the monks of the temples spread out when the Emperor decided they were a threat to his power. They left and settled in many parts of Aisa, and each one had a bit of the total they taught at the temple. Most styles are just part of the totality, and why their forms (katas) are so similar. Now, the way they trained, their pedagogy, and mindset, those are what separated them. The Ryus of Okinawa, and Hwrang Do and Tae Kyon of Korea, same stuff, different methods of instruction. Hell, look what Helio Gracie did with JuJitsu? Now, everyone has a part of the puzzle that was broke apart so long ago, and that's what they go with as "total" and "pure" .

“There are no pure styles of karate. Purity comes only when pure knuckles meet pure flesh, no matter who delivers or receives.”— Ed Parker

I trained Kenpo, but have in fact been told, I did JKD better than guys that trained JKD by a guy named Bob Bremer, one of the Original 12. When he came to my studio, he asked who my instructor was, and said "no way". He asked if I had ever studied JKD, I told him no (I hadn't at the time). He was perplexed as to how I knew what JKD was doing by doing Kenpo. I reiterated, I've never trained JKD, I found an effective system, and learned it well, and continued finding truths others had missed. He came back a few days later and I let him teach my adult class the Bil Jee. Little did he know, we already had it in Kenpo, just named it something else. He told me his own students didn't do JKD as well as I did, and I would make a great JKD instructor with him. I politely told him, "ah, I'm kinda happy doing what I'm doing, and it seems doing and teaching JKD would be going backwards". He came by many times after that, and we always had a great conversation about life.


I discovered most Kenpoists do a "partial art" as well, not understanding the dynamic nature, and simplicity of what Mr. Parker taught. One of Parker's original Black Belts called it "motion Kenpo". If you're unaware, Bruce stayed at Ed Parker's house for a time when he first got back to LA, so there was a healthy exchange of information by them. Mr. Parker introduced him to Blake Edwards, and got him the job as Kato in the Green Hornet. You'll notice Bruce didn't take the Wing Chun stance, didn't chain punch as much, used better methods to form his idea of a system. There's only "Truth In Combat", and he promoted that idea fiercely, as do I.

Have a great, gun carryin', Kenpo day

Clyde