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What's the law on selling a finished/complete Polymer80?
Posted: June 28th, 2019, 9:16 pm
by rick lee
This is not a veiled for sale ad. Just curious if I'm allowed to sell (private party) a complete or finished Polymer80 build. There's no serial number on the frame, of course. But there are serial numbers on the factory Glock slide and barrel. Since I'm not an FFL and not in the business of selling guns, can I still sell this for the purpose of "rotating" my collection? Or do I have to have the frame engraved? I certainly wouldn't want to use the same serial number that's on the slide and barrel, since that one obviously exists on a real Glock frame too.
Re: What's the law on selling a finished/complete Polymer80?
Posted: June 29th, 2019, 12:05 am
by Suck My Glock
Many people who are (understandably) paranoid about how ATF will/would view selling a non-serial-numbered home build say it can't and must not be done, claiming that it somehow violates the law. But I have yet to see anyone present actual evidence that is so. To my knowledge, manufacturing a gun without a serial number is legal for one's self as long as it is INTENDED only for personal use and not for sale for profit.
But of course, while 5 years ago when you built it you had fully intended to keep it forever, things change. For whatever reason, you now no longer need/want it. As long as you can justify and articulate and explain how that is so,...there appears to be nothing prohititing disposal of it by recuperating its cost/value. I have had plenty of people claim otherwise, but not convincingly such as citing legal precedent or authority in such a case.
I have seen a few completed Polymer80s on Armslist advertized. There are at least 4 listed there right now.
Re: What's the law on selling a finished/complete Polymer80?
Posted: June 29th, 2019, 12:15 am
by Crippledtrigger
DISCLAIMER, getting advice on the internet about stuff that could cost you decades in federal prison is not the best practice or legal aid. Take it all as lies from people wanting to hurt you till you properly verify its veracity.
IIRC POLYMER 80 has FAQ section on reselling completed projects. You have to properly mark it per federal law.
Beyond that, completed 100% polymer frames from manufacturers cant just be engraved like metal parts and have to have a serial number plate molded into the part in a way that it cant easily be alterd. How much of those guidelines you must follow when marking your lower is something that I've never come across. You will need to be careful and fully informed if you sell more than a couple of these creations. While you can make all the 80% guns you want for yourself, once you start selling them, i.e. more than one and I have no clue what that threshold is, you're getting into/could be needing a manufacturing license.
As far as marking the lower I see no reason why you couldnt use the glock parts serial number with a prefix or suffix like P80, GLOCK SERIAL NUMBER, then your initials. Or some derivative of that. You could do anything you want like COMGTEM001. Come get them 001.
Good luck and report back what you discovered.
Re: What's the law on selling a finished/complete Polymer80?
Posted: June 29th, 2019, 6:14 am
by knockonit
Re: What's the law on selling a finished/complete Polymer80?
Posted: June 29th, 2019, 6:46 am
by rick lee
Poly80s have a small tag under the dust cover, just like where the serial # is on factory Glocks. It looks like a strip of aluminum, perfect for engraving.
As for the FAQ on Poly80's website, this is the relevant law they cite:
27 CFR 472.92
And that clearly only applies to licensed manufacturers or importers. There is no mention of hobbyists, enthusiasts or non-licensed people.
Re: What's the law on selling a finished/complete Polymer80?
Posted: June 29th, 2019, 10:13 am
by YNOTAZ
This is one of those very tricky area as you can see by the comments already made. I will throw a bit more confusion in:
First agreement with what Suck My Glock said. I can’t find any law that covers this unless you build or have an intent to sell when building. The other part is some magic number determined by ATF that is a threshold making you a manufacturer. That same threshold applies to being a dealer. There is no number is US Code or ATF rules.
Then I will ad something to what Crippledtrigger said. If you do mark a firearm as a manufacturer there ae requirements you must follow, the depth and size of font and it must include your name, city, state, and serial number. Here is the rub in my mind, if you mark it like that have you admitted you are a manufacturer? If you “manufacture” an SBR or an SBS you must mark it like that and pay a tax under NFA. I can’t find a law that says a firearm you manufactured for yourself must be marked if you sell it.
Add more confusion to the magic number thingy that makes you a manufacturer. When you build one SBS, SBR, or Suppressor, you submit a form 1 stating you are the manufacturer. There are 10s of thousands of those in the system already. Could the ATF go to court and say, see the magic number is 1 nobody has to build 2 of anything to be a manufacturer, look at this mountain of evidence.
This will likely require a test case and I can’t afford to be that person. I would rather destroy the “firearm”, the AR, AK, Glock, or 1911. It would be far less costly in the long run.
Re: What's the law on selling a finished/complete Polymer80?
Posted: June 29th, 2019, 11:01 am
by delta6
Well.. talk about muddying the water. The NFA rules a pretty cut and dried. You fill out paperwork that states you are a manufacturer and you pay the fee to do it. That is a million miles away from making a non NFA firearm where no tax for manufacturing is involved. When you sell an NFA item it has a serial number that you registered and every other one that you make and sell has the tax paid on it. After 5 or 6 the BATFE loves you since they realize that if you actually applied for a MFR's licence they would be receiving less revenue.
With the newest SCOTUS ruling, you can plead that you didn't know that it was not legal.. regardless.
Re: What's the law on selling a finished/complete Polymer80?
Posted: June 29th, 2019, 11:13 am
by rick lee
I have built up two Poly80s ever, both in the last 18 mos. One I will never sell. The other I just don't like anymore. It's very nice, has a real stock Glock upper and barrel, Apex trigger and Ghost trigger bar. I had zero intention to sell when I built it. I just know it's no longer my thing. I don't plan to build more, will never become a manufacturer. I won't ever get into NFA stuff either. I have buddy who did get onto ATF's radar about building up too many ARs from stripped lowers and selling them privately, sans FFL. But it was way, way more than just rotating a gun out of the collection to free up funds and gun safe space for more. That's all I really want to do, though I don't even know if I want to replace it with another gun. I just know I won't shoot it anymore, so there's no point in keeping it. Taking it to an FFL or gunsmith to engrave it sounds like a real pain in the ass I won't bother with.
Re: What's the law on selling a finished/complete Polymer80?
Posted: June 29th, 2019, 2:49 pm
by YNOTAZ
delta6 wrote: ↑June 29th, 2019, 11:01 am
Well.. talk about muddying the water.
Yep, that's the point, you can be a "manufacturer" without even making a firearm, just build an oil filter adapter on a lathe, 5/8x24 on one side pick an adapter size on the other, submit a form 1 to be legal, and you're a manufacturer.
Mill out one lower and; are you or aren't you a manufacture?
The water is muddy and if the feds are on your arse for anything that doesn't stick real good, I bet they say you are a "manufacturer." Then you get to go bankrupt trying to stay out of jail, ultimately pleading to a lesser offense just to stop the financial bleeding, and you get probation and never own another firearm.
Like I said, I don't want to play test case when guberment has trillions to spend against me.
Re: What's the law on selling a finished/complete Polymer80?
Posted: June 29th, 2019, 5:22 pm
by Crippledtrigger
Knockonit is correct when saying if it isnt marked who knows. Probably no one will ever know who built it. Another question though, is it legal to buy and own one you didnt complete yourself since its clearly modern and not serialized?
What about the records of polymer 80 when and if they become the special project of some antigun or ghost gun crusader as happend with some 80 percent AR lowers a few years back or the 3d printed gun guy recently?
What if the guy you sell to has an issue for what ever reason and says I got them from this guy who makes em?
If that became an issue Do you have the money and lawyers to fight that? Even if you win your life would be destroyed and then winning a malicious prosecution case against the feds isnt realistic.
The issues can be as complicated as the gooberment wants to make them. You can clearly make your own gun but no where does it say you can then sell that un serialized gun to others just like it doesn't say anywhere that you cant sell it. It says guns manufactured and sold have to be marked but you arent a licensed manufacturer, but are you if you try to comply with laws clearly meant for manufacturers if you sell on? Does that make you into a manufacturer without a license? Other FFL issues?
I'm sure thousand of folks sold 80 percent guns they decided they didnt want after a while as it's a grey area but antis hate loopholes and you dont want to be the one guy caught in the nose when they jerk that loophole closed.
Like knockonit said, if it's not marked who will know who built or sold it. Right?
Since we cleared all that up.
Re: What's the law on selling a finished/complete Polymer80?
Posted: June 29th, 2019, 6:40 pm
by delta6
Crippledtrigger wrote: ↑June 29th, 2019, 5:22 pm
Knockonit is correct when saying if it isnt marked who knows. Probably no one will ever know who built it. Another question though, is it legal to buy and own one you didnt complete yourself since its clearly modern and not serialized?
What about the records of polymer 80 when and if they become the special project of some antigun or ghost gun crusader as happend with some 80 percent AR lowers a few years back or the 3d printed gun guy recently?
What if the guy you sell to has an issue for what ever reason and says I got them from this guy who makes em?
If that became an issue Do you have the money and lawyers to fight that? Even if you win your life would be destroyed and then winning a malicious prosecution case against the feds isnt realistic.
The issues can be as complicated as the gooberment wants to make them. You can clearly make your own gun but no where does it say you can then sell that un serialized gun to others just like it doesn't say anywhere that you cant sell it. It says guns manufactured and sold have to be marked but you arent a licensed manufacturer, but are you if you try to comply with laws clearly meant for manufacturers if you sell on? Does that make you into a manufacturer without a license? Other FFL issues?
I'm sure thousand of folks sold 80 percent guns they decided they didnt want after a while as it's a grey area but antis hate loopholes and you dont want to be the one guy caught in the nose when they jerk that loophole closed.
Like knockonit said, if it's not marked who will know who built or sold it. Right?
Since we cleared all that up.
DNA....
Re: What's the law on selling a finished/complete Polymer80?
Posted: June 30th, 2019, 9:40 am
by rick lee
I see plenty listed on Armslist now that make no mention of being completed Poly80s. It's clear from the photos that's what they are, but they're listed as Glocks. Anyway, I built this gun well over a year ago, put lots of rounds through it, added some other custom stuff, had no intent to sell when I was building it. It's just no longer my thing. Gonna sell or trade.
Re: What's the law on selling a finished/complete Polymer80?
Posted: June 30th, 2019, 2:24 pm
by Crippledtrigger
Sell the glock parts maybe turn it into a different glock?
I'd consider assembling a mish mash of unmatched traded for and non recorded upper parts, ensure reliability then
toss it and a 1000 rounds into a burial vault for safe keeping for some day. A poly80 time capsule. You never know.
I know you probably paid as much for an actual nib Glock by the time you were done. Let us know how the barter process went....generally ofcourse. If you wish too. i.e. did you have problems with its value or funding suitors.
Re: What's the law on selling a finished/complete Polymer80?
Posted: June 30th, 2019, 2:53 pm
by rick lee
There are regular deals on new Poly80 kits from Brownell's and other places that make it almost cost effective to build vs. buy a new Glock. But when I got this one, the frames were around $150 everywhere. I have seen them for half that a few times since then.
Re: What's the law on selling a finished/complete Polymer80?
Posted: July 17th, 2019, 6:09 am
by 17-21-23
Bottom line, making one for yourself no problem. Making one and selling just one by ATFE standards, illegal as hell. Why because it can't be traced by to manufacture. Bottom line.
