Chinese Copper Washed AK/SKS Ammo

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Harrier
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Chinese Copper Washed AK/SKS Ammo

#1

Post by Harrier »

I started to post this in the 'New to me Mak-90' thread here but decided we were drifting off topic so thought a new thread on the subject was in order. I put it here in rifles, as that is where the original started- if the Mod wants to move it- that's up to them...

It's interesting things you discover by testing them yourself.... even with simple inspection.

Since we were discussing the merits of old Chinese steel core, I dug out some 7.62x39 Chinese Cu washed examples that I could easily find. AZgeezer made the comment that not all Cu Washed Chinese ammo was steel core... that some of it had a steel jacket with lead core.

I'll leave sectioning bullets and additional show and tell to someone else...

Bear in mind that Chinese steel core ammo was banned from import in 1994.
I believe at that time all arms and ammunition factories in China were govt owned and operated, so one might assume that all 7.62x39 ammo made before 1994 is steel core, the same as used by their military. It has been said that Norinco was a commercial front for selling milsurp products.
I would expect imports after 1994 to be lead core. I question they would makeup special steel jackets just for that batch of ammo but anything is possible.

When testing these bullets with magnets I first tried a weak business card/refrigerator type- some didn't register anything and others showed a very slight attraction to the case and the bullet.
I switched to a strong magnet from an old disk drive and the attraction was robust to say the least, even at the tip.

The first picture is a group shot showing the Chinese loaded ammo I have on hand. Three of them are copper washed steel cases and look pretty much the same, the Norinco yellow box has black steel cases.

Chinese Cu.jpg

The commercial Blue Box w/head-stamp 351-92 (factory/year) does not have a brand name but says it is made to military specs.
Primers are brass but do not have sealer. I do not see any sealer at the neck/bullet either but there is a very slight groove in the bullet perhaps where sealer would go or a crimp area The bullet tips are strongly magnetic suggesting a steel core (which I believe is the case).

The Norinco Yellow box (black steel case) is marked 71-89 and it too is strongly magnetic. The primers are brass colored and have a red sealant. The bullets have the same slight groove and under a magnifying glass it appears a clear coating has been applied- perhaps lacquer.

Now the interesting part... I have two lots that came out of spam cans.(one I bought and another I split with someone else), both are copper washed steel and look pretty much the same. Both have red primer sealer and a red ring at the neck/bullet. Shown here on the left/right with a side view in the middle.

3-Variations.jpg


The first sample is marked 9121-73 and the bullet is a pointed spitzer like the previous bullets above.
On close inspection it has the slight groove in the bullet at the mouth and the red sealer can be seen on both case and bullet as a even ring at the mouth. The bullet is strongly magnetic.

The last example has head-stamp 539-76. Although a spitzer bullet it's point is more blunt and the ogive taper appears different from the 9121 version. Looking at the case mouth shows a definite crimp not seen on the others and the red ring is applied in this area . I don't see the red at the bullet/case juncture so maybe it is hidden inside or maybe the red ring is to make it look like it's sealed. The primer has the red sealer. The bullet IS NOT magnetic at all. This surprised me. This bullet may be a cheap knockoff made to resemble milsurp.

Bullet Profiles.jpg


What is interesting is the 76 in the head-stamp, IF it is in fact a date, that is way before the ban, else it must be a code of some sort.
Looking closely at the bullet, it appears to be plated, little dings show how soft it is (indicating lead) but the plating is intact. Again, this bullet IS NOT magnetic at all.

So AZGeezer is correct... some is, some ain't... however in this example, the bullet jacket isn't Cu washed steel, but now I don't doubt there isn't some out there...

ETA....
Just for fun I went out to a Headstamp Codes headstamp collector website and looked up the various codes.... turns out they all are Chinese... Except for one- they have a listing for that odd-ball 539 as being manufactured by Tula in Russian.... That would explain all the subtle differences, so maybe it isn't Chinese lead core after all- I didn't know Russia made Cu washed!


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Re: Chinese Copper Washed AK/SKS Ammo

#2

Post by Steve_In_29 »

You don't have to section the bullet. Simply pull one and look at the open base. You will either find lead or steel. Both are covered in a steel jacket though.
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Re: Chinese Copper Washed AK/SKS Ammo

#3

Post by AZGEEZER »

Folks need to try and think a little outside the box. Copper washing components is like a black oxide coating on parts, it's there to protect what's under it. Since then a lot have gone to just using shellac as a coating which as most know is famous for sticking in chambers if your not careful.

I worked in aerospace all my life, and a lot of the employees were into shooting living in Phoenix. We had all manner of ways to check almost anything. Once I showed them there was no visual diffrence between the 2 and did the magnet stunt, off to the inspection dept for further proof. Even in aerospace some folks just didn't get it until concrete proof was provided.

With as old as those steel cores are my red flag would be flying high buying something like that over the net. I wouldn't imagine true steel core would be going for anything under $1ea. Fooling the unsuspecting person since they would propably just take a magnet to it to verify.

Harrier

Back then they had both lead and steel core. I would drive up to J&G all the time and bring back truck loads for the club. We didn't want to use steel core and wanted only lead core, but somehow a case of steel core got mixed in and the rest is history. When the ban hit all you could get was lead core from countries other than China.
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Re: Chinese Copper Washed AK/SKS Ammo

#4

Post by samnev »

Most corrosive ammo I've ever shot.
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Re: Chinese Copper Washed AK/SKS Ammo

#5

Post by Harrier »

Since I've never been "really into" SKS or AK's except for having a couple and shooting them once in a while, I didn't pay close attention to the specifics of what ammo was being peddled. AFAIK the Chinese surplus commonly found at gun shows are mostly Cu washed and everyone refers to it as steel core, thus I believed all old milsurp was steel core and the coloring & date became an identifier.
I guess I should have been born in Missouri...

Now that I think about it, 7.62x54r Mosin surplus is Cu washed too. I never got interested in those and I never payed attention who made the pretty bullets... yes, I'm fully aware of why copper washing was used and it wasn't to compliment the uniform.

I've shot old ammo as far back as the 40's. Chrono data shows it is usually slightly slower to on par with new stuff, so IMO the age of the ammo is usually only a concern for the corrosive priming aspect or if it has been subject to improper storage & heat. This is a question that can't easily be answered for any foreign surplus available. Whether you buy it at a gun show, from someplace off the inet or FTF...the end buyer doesn't know where it was stored nor for how long... it's all old and you can figure it was probably stored for years in desert / jungle bunkers and came over on a boat in a steel container sitting in the sun... If it goes bang then at least you got your penny's worth.

OK then... Since enquiring minds want to know (aka mine), I decided to sacrifice the above rounds to dissection, especially since I can reassemble them. Also, since I'm going to all this effort (can ya feel it) I dug deep and added four more of some other stuff I have laying around... like East German M43 surplus (the box says made in Germany but the head-stamp indicates Hungary).

Who knows, ya might run into some at a show... Most was bought in the late 90's early '00 which is when my interest in SKS/AK's started- so it is likely lead core.

bullets 2 pull.jpg

Here is the summary... I'll try to put the data in a table for easier comparison if the editor will support tables, if not, well crap, formatting is not fun...

OEM ..... cOAL....... Wt.Type... Brand........... Powder... gr... avg-fps... Magnetic... base... bOAL... Bullet.... Note

Russian 2.172".....122 JHP...TCW 539-76..... Extruded...24.2gr 2347fps No FB 0.809 Lead Core Cu.plated lead
Russian 2.158".....124 JHP...Ulyanovsk 98.....Extruded...25.7gr 2379 fpsYes FB 0.875 Lead Core
Chinese 2.189".....123 FMJ...Chinese 9122...Extruded...24.8gr 2318fps Yes BT 1.05 Steel Core
E.German 2.183".....123 FMJ...M43 21-77.....Extruded...23.9gr 2336 fps Yes FB 0.903 Lead Core white box
Russian 2.147".....124 JHP...3-94 (Ulyanovsk)...Ball...25.5gr ... Yes BT 1.03 Steel Core purple stripe box
Chinese 2.193".....123 FMJ...71-89 Norinco...Extruded...24.7gr ... Yes BT 1.05 Steel Core yellow box
Chinese 2.175".....123 FMJ...351-92 Bluebox...Extruded...27.2gr ... Yes FB 0.91 Lead Core
Russian 2.175".....122 JHP...TCW Whitebox....Extruded...24.5gr ... Yes FB 1.034 Lead Core white box

During dissection there were several surprises...
bases.jpg

results that were not as expected are marked with *** in pic )... click to zoom
o- ALL bullets were magnetic except the one Cu plated unit.
o- TCW 539-76 is a copper plated lead bullet- I am surprised they were doing that back in 76.
o- E.German M43 21-73- I expected this to be steel core- flat base lead core w/steel jacket.
o- Uly 3-94 HP.bt Steel Core- is this hollow pointed milsurp steel core? Also this one has ball powder.
o- Norinco Yellow box 351-92 I was surprised this is steel core. Base of bullet has a thin lead wash but steel under.
o- Blue-box MilSpec- I expected SC but nope- lead core Also 1.5gr more powder than others.. milspec?
o- TCW White-box- A 122gr HP.bt lead core that is as long as a 124gr FMJ.bt steel core - How'd they do that?

Overall I would say this was an interesting exercise and I now view surplus 7.62x39 much differently.
Last edited by Harrier on July 24th, 2018, 2:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Chinese Copper Washed AK/SKS Ammo

#6

Post by AZGEEZER »

Harrier

I had to show the other half what you wrote, not only did she about fall out of her chair laughing so hard she looked at me with an odd look.

After she could compose herself, to a point, she was able to explain about that odd look I got.

Working in aerospace for so long I developed a pattern and around here I'm real fussy about almost everything. She pointed out that I was so anal about stuff that the article you did reminded her of how I am. I can go on about things about certain ammo, but I do spend a lot of effort and time when I roll my own.
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Re: Chinese Copper Washed AK/SKS Ammo

#7

Post by Harrier »

I was a plain ol Architect for 20 then became a IT Engineer (contractor to the Army )for 15 years so i think I know what you mean. My wife's father was the head wind-tunnel engineer at the skunkworks on the SR71 and others, now there is anal...
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Re: Chinese Copper Washed AK/SKS Ammo

#8

Post by AZGEEZER »

I think I would drive the average person nutz. I figured out how to convert 308 brass into 35Rem brass, and those don't wear out. Figured how to make 380&9mm shot loads from 223 brass. Made 44mag shot loads from 445 brass as well as others. Making 45acp shot loads from 308 brass gets involved.

Doing hydraforming making my own set up took me some time.

Around here we have a saying, necessity is the mother of creation. Of course having a lathe helps out a bunch.
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Re: Chinese Copper Washed AK/SKS Ammo

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Re: Chinese Copper Washed AK/SKS Ammo

#10

Post by Harrier »

That was very helpful Muzap... thanks
Do you have any thoughts on two of my Russian samples?

1. 124 JHP, 3-94 (Ulyanovsk) head-stamp, w/25.5gr Ball powder. Came in a white box purple strips ... The boat-tailed bullet does have a steel core and is of similar length & profile to other steel core except it is a hollow point. Also this is the only one with ball powder. I read somewhere that they did hollowpoint some existing FMJ, but for a hunting round (marked on the box) I wouldn't think they would use steel core unless the packaging was just marketing to get my Rubles.

It is interesting the date code is 94 - if the law was passed in Feb then it probably had 6 month until it went into effect. This stuff just squeaked in the window, or else it uses a very very hard lead my pick couldn't scratch (and I bought it 5 years later still sealed).

2. 122 JHP, TCW White box- This FMJ.BT bullet is 1.034" oal just like the steel core but is lead core and weighs 1gr less than the shorter lead core... how'd they accomplish that? perhaps filling the tip with something light? This is one I might have to cut open.
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Re: Chinese Copper Washed AK/SKS Ammo

#11

Post by Suck My Glock »

The steel core stuff is of such a mild and soft steel that it is nowhere near "armor-piercing" in quality. At most, it retains itself better when cutting through light skinned auto bodies than the lead cored stuff, but only by a slight margin. Interestingly, the Chinese got their quality control in the steel core manufacturing process so good that for a time during the late 80s and early 90s, you could occassionally score Chinese "match" 7.62x39, and it was steel core. (For them, "match" was 2 moa vs typical 5 or 6 moa). It usually sold for the exact same price as all the other blasting stuff, at 7.5 cents per round back then.
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Re: Chinese Copper Washed AK/SKS Ammo

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Post by Harrier »

I saw a YouTube video where the stuff went thru a 1/4" steel plate but not 1/2", so that is probably where it gets its armor piercing nomenclature... of course the steel was probably mild steel and not AS500 or other hardened armor plate. I'll make sure I'll avoid 1/4" steel body armor and only wear the heavy stuff....
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Re: Chinese Copper Washed AK/SKS Ammo

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Post by Muzap »

Harrier wrote: July 25th, 2018, 7:57 am That was very helpful Muzap... thanks
Do you have any thoughts on two of my Russian samples?

1. 124 JHP, 3-94 (Ulyanovsk) head-stamp, w/25.5gr Ball powder. Came in a white box purple strips ... The boat-tailed bullet does have a steel core and is of similar length & profile to other steel core except it is a hollow point. Also this is the only one with ball powder. I read somewhere that they did hollowpoint some existing FMJ, but for a hunting round (marked on the box) I wouldn't think they would use steel core unless the packaging was just marketing to get my Rubles.

It is interesting the date code is 94 - if the law was passed in Feb then it probably had 6 month until it went into effect. This stuff just squeaked in the window, or else it uses a very very hard lead my pick couldn't scratch (and I bought it 5 years later still sealed).

2. 122 JHP, TCW White box- This FMJ.BT bullet is 1.034" oal just like the steel core but is lead core and weighs 1gr less than the shorter lead core... how'd they accomplish that? perhaps filling the tip with something light? This is one I might have to cut open.
Those both sound odd. I've never heard of a steel core hollow point 7.62 x 39. Maybe drilled after it left the factory? I'm definitely no expert, though. I ran into the page I linked several years back when I bought an unopened spam can of Chinese steel core from a private party. I'm not sure if I'll even ever shoot it - as mentioned above, it's definitely corrosive, although I usually clean after every shoot anyway so it doesn't make that much difference to me. I do know, from what I've shot of some loose rounds I have, that it has noticeably more "punch" than contemporary Russian ammo like Wolf and Tula. Someday I'd like to chrono it next to the Russian ammo just to satisfy my curiosity.
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Re: Chinese Copper Washed AK/SKS Ammo

#14

Post by Harrier »

No its factory ULA- 1000 rds came sealed in factory boxes
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